"Japanese sword" or "japanese saber"?

[Mateusz Sendecki]

Hello everybody!

This is my first post (and first thread as well) on this forum, and I want to hear your professional opinion about it.

As we know, everybody are using word "sword" when we discuss about Japanese uchigatana. So, let's check what this word really means: "A sword is a long, edged piece of metal, used in many civilizations throughout the world, primarily as a cutting or thrusting weapon and occasionally for clubbing [...] Three types of attacks can be performed with the blade: striking, cutting, and thrusting. The blade can be double-edged or single-edged, the latter often having a secondary "false edge" near the tip. '' (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword)

As we can see uchigatanas can be swords on account of that "[...]blade can be double-edged or single-edged[...]", but let's see the another word, which is widely used to describine cutting-like weapons- the saber.

"The sabre or saber (see spelling differences) is a kind of backsword that usually but not always has a curved, single-edged blade and a rather large hand guard, covering the knuckles of the hand as well as the thumb and forefinger."

So, the saber (like uchigananas) has curved, single-edged blade, with "RATHER large hand guard". "Rather" do not mean "always", and this phrase with curved-like blade...

Anyway, in polish terminology "japanese swords" becomes "japanse sabers", I think .

One more thing! It may be stupid but think about the well-known word "lighsaber" which is describing the weapon used by Jedi Knights in phenomenal, worldwide known "Star Wars" movie series. It has straight blade with more than one cutting edge. So it shoud be called "lightsword" rather than "lightsaber". The interesting thing is that in polish translation of this movie there has been used the word "miecz świetlny" which means "lightsword"!!!

So, what do You thing about what I wrote?

I am apologize for any grammatical mistakes. I am still learning English, so do not be so strict about me !

[Rubem Bastos]

Mateusz,

Once I read an entire article about what you mentioned about the japanese sword. It has indeed a curved blade, like a saber, but a handle for both hands, like a sword.

More experienced guys here will elaborate on this. Welcome to SFI.

Yes, I've asked myself "why isnt it lightsword..."

[Lee James Bray]

I think the Japanese will quietly continue about their business of appreciating Nihonto whilst the crazy foreigners discuss how many names we can give something.

[Jeff Ellis]

Hai,
It's a ken or to (in Japanese), which translate, loosely, in English, to sword, more like "sharp bladed weapon thing." Making "Tanto" swords as well, technically.

Edited to add:
All sabers/sabres are swords, but not all swords are sabers/sabres.

[Vaurien Silverwood]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

Hai,

Edited to add:
All sabers/sabres are swords, but not all swords are sabers/sabres.

I agree. Yes, a standard katana is, from a European point of view, a two handed sabre. It is also, of course, a sword.

As for Star Wars... lightsaber blades have no real mass since the hilt contains a small crystal that produces the beam that is the blade, which is actually a loop since it doubles back on itself and goes back into the hilt. Since the length of a lightsaber blade is just half of that loop, a curved lightsaber blade can be made by exaggerating the arc of the loop and causing the beam to return the way it came; a simple matter for one who is wise in the way of the force.
If you exaggerate the arc of the loop but don't cause the beam to return the way it came you get a lightleafblade or, at shorter lengths - a lightsmatchet..

The crystal in some lightsabers is spinning near light speed and produces a gyroscopic effect that requires a firm grip to wield, and quite a bit of force (pun intended) to make it change direction when you want it to. The faster the crystal spins, the longer the blade, but also the greater the gyroscopic effect, which limits the practical length of your standard lightsaber since anything longer than normal would be too hard to handle.
A curved lightsaber, of course, produces torque in a totally random direction and makes the lightsaber more difficult to control, and impossible to control when thrown.
It is said that Palpatine had - and effectively mastered the use of - such a sword.

[william.m]

... why are you talking about lightsabers?

[Vaurien Silverwood]

You'd have to read the thread to find that out, William.

But you're right, the General Discussion Forum is not the place to post about fictional swords. My apologies to the moderators.

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally Posted by Vaurien Silverwood

I agree. Yes, a standard katana is, from a European point of view, a two handed sabre. It is also, of course, a sword.

Yet the translation of Ken or To (which are the japanese words for sword) don't suggest any such definition.

I think it's more a matter being over thought and people trying to use their own language to classify something that was never meant to be classified in their language in the first place, if you want to get really technical about it.

A sword is a sword is a sword.

I'm not saying that one can't call it a saber, I'm saying that one needs to take the original context and definition of what the original makers into consideration before they do this.

For all I care you could call it a baseball bat, as long as you can back it up.

Just don't go calling a dolphin a fish just because it lives in the water.

[Anders Backlund]

Honestly, trying to clearly define a "saber" is almost impossible - and that's coming from me, who is obsessed with definition.

Thing is, the word has had different meanings over different periods, in different places and to different people, and sometimes the definitions become very contradictory. Sure, the most common definition is a "curved, single-edged cutting blade", but see these three?

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/sablar1.gif

Those are considered sabers according to the Swedish standard when they were issued. I say "when they were issued" because they probably wouldn't have been called that a hundred years earlier; more likely they'd been värjor, a term which is a whole other can of worms altogether.

Point is, we here in the west can barely agree on which of our swords are sabers and which aren't. Trying to apply the term on Japanese swords, which use completely different terms and standards to classify swords to begin with, is bound to get a bit silly.

Originally Posted by Mateusz Sendecki

One more thing! It may be stupid but think about the well-known word "lighsaber" which is describing the weapon used by Jedi Knights in phenomenal, worldwide known "Star Wars" movie series. It has straight blade with more than one cutting edge.

[nerd mode] Actually, lightsabers have no "cutting edges" at all - the blades have round cross-sections (more rod-shaped then sword-shaped if you will) and cause damage by burning or melting the target rather then "cutting" as the word is used in a swordfighting context. [/nerd mode]

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally Posted by Anders Backlund

[nerd mode] Actually, lightsabers have no "cutting edges" at all - the blades have round cross-sections (more rod-shaped then sword-shaped if you will) and cause damage by burning or melting the target rather then "cutting" as the word is used in a swordfighting context. [/nerd mode]

[nerd]couldn't they shut off the burning bit completely as well and just club each other with them?[/nerd]

[Anders Backlund]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

[nerd]couldn't they shut off the burning bit completely as well and just club each other with them?[/nerd]

[nerd] Ah, regrettably I'm not sure what the official canon has to say about that. You'll have to ask George Lucas. [/nerd]

[J Hashey]

It's amazing how we can consistently borrow words from other languages only to use them wrongly.I've been speaking English all my life, and the more I think about all the grammatical inconsistencies and whatnot (let's leave out all those "spelling rules") the more confused I get. It's easier to speak the language if you don't deconstruct it.

Perhaps katana, etc. can be referred to as Japanese dao?

[Vaurien Silverwood]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

All sabers/sabres are swords, but not all swords are sabers/sabres.

Originally Posted by Vaurien Silverwood

I agree. Yes, a standard katana is, from a European point of view, a two handed sabre. It is also, of course, a sword.

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

Yet the translation of Ken or To (which are the japanese words for sword) don't suggest any such definition.

Just don't go calling a dolphin a fish just because it lives in the water.

Well, I thought I was agreeing with you, Jeff. As I say, I was simply looking at it from a European perspective, and 'two-handed sabre would mean 'two handed single edged curved sword' to most people here, I would guess. Just in terms of a handy description to indicate what one is referring to, at least.

As to the Japanese point of view, they're probably even less likely than us to know what a sabre is, since sabre/ saber is an English/ American term.
I know what the difference is between a dolphin and a fish, so I can say,"Oh look, there's a dolphin!" when I see one in the water. But asking a dolphin what dolphins call themselves in Cetacean might confuse things.

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally Posted by Vaurien Silverwood

Well, I thought I was agreeing with you, Jeff. As I say, I was simply looking at it from a European perspective, and 'two-handed sabre would mean 'two handed single edged curved sword' to most people here, I would guess. Just in terms of a handy description to indicate what one is referring to, at least.

As to the Japanese point of view, they're probably even less likely than us to know what a sabre is, since sabre/ saber is an English/ American term.

http://japanesesword.com/Images/Swor...T5/608KAT5.htm What's that, then? It's called, in Japanese, a kyugunto.

Not arguing, just pointing things out

[K. Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

What's that, then?

Pretty, that's what that is. Even with the machine-made blade, the fittings are beautiful. Ah for the money to buy antiques!

[Vaurien Silverwood]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

http://japanesesword.com/Images/Swor...T5/608KAT5.htm What's that, then? It's called, in Japanese, a kyugunto.

Not arguing, just pointing things out

Well, the site calls it a dress saber. That it's a two handed saber is apparent, as it's made for two hands. With the European hilt I'd call it a most interesting fusion of East and West; a katana-type blade with an extended European-type hilt.

So it's a kyugunto in Japanese, though one might descibe it as a two handed sabre in English. Not a name, but a description. Similarly I could name something as a katana, but describe it as a two-handed sabre to someone who wasn't exaclty familiar with the term 'katana'.

We can discuss what the precise definition of a sabre is, but the term reflects common useage, rather than being an expert term which only a few people really understand.
We can discuss what the real meaning of the term 'sword' is, but again, the term is one of convenience so people can easily communicate with each other, not a complex term only really understod by the few.

In short, I could say, "Look, a sword" and you'd know what I meant, and would have a chance to duck.

If I said, "、剣見なさい" then it might be too late.


Not arguing, just pointing things out

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

Yet the translation of Ken or To (which are the japanese words for sword) don't suggest any such definition.

Originally Posted by J Hashey

Perhaps katana, etc. can be referred to as Japanese dao?

"Ken" and "to" do correspond more-or-less to "sword" and "sabre", and come complete with the same fuzzy distinction between them. It's fairly uniform across East Asia:

To / katana / do / dao /dou, generally translated into English as sabre, knife, or sword

vs

Ken / tsurugi(?) / geom / jian / gim, generally translated as sword.

Kenjutsu/kendo/gumdo using a katana or katana-substitute, swordplay or sword-fighting whether using a sabre or a sword that isn't a saber.

Attempts to exclusively define "sword" in such a way as to exclude sabres do confuse this issue, but what else would one expect if trying to establish a narrow technical meaning for a widely-used wide-meaning common term? It can work as jargon for an in-group, but it's usually just silly to try to enforce it more generally.

And then, just to add confusion, a common translation of "dao" is "broadsword"!

[Johnny H]

Somehow I am missing that it’s a two handed sabre, it’s looking just like a normal one hander to me…

To add more fun if we really care to classify, it seems a popular ‘category’ that a sabre is a type of scimitar, making the sword classification a sword -> scimitar -> sabre. As most sabre’s are single hander’s, isn’t it more appropriate to call ‘Japanese’ swords scimitars? I always figured the Japanese blades had a better lobby group that is why they got their own category.

And the best thing to realize is that no one using the blades ever cared what it was called, they just used them. It’s always those who come by later who try to classify everything…just like in music.

And the sabre was commonly called a broadsword in the west as well.

[Andrzej Wilewski]

I think that there is a bit of a language barrier here at play. In Polish, there is a bit of distinction between "sword" (meaning mostly a straight or a leafy blade) and "sabre", being an one handed, curved backsword. Unlike in English and taking apart technical language, a sword is distinct from a sabre.

We have a long tradition of swords as being used by ancient Polish tribes (bronze and early steel age - bad association), Vikings invading from Baltic sea (again - pretty bad) and German invaders and Teutonic Knights (also - centuries of bad history). On the other hands we have a long perplexed tradition - almost mythology - of Polish Hussars, cavalry, Dragon riders - all using curved sabres. It is in our most remembered books and movies. We have had our old kings or heroes using swords - some in the very same movies - but these are distinct, well defined - and never curvy.

That said - I've read works in Polish dubbing katana a sabre - and I see reason to that. Single edged, curvy etc. On the other hand the origin of sabre is slashing from horseback (even Polish hussars were using straight swords from a horseback in the beginning, but ceased this practice - sabres were more practical here), so tachi would be more appealing perhaps.

In Polish, katana would seem closer to a "sword" in being used more as the foot combat weapon against horseback slashing weapon. Yet the Poles spent centuries using their sabres fighting on their feet as well - duelling or in groups. So the definitive answer is open to debate.

Personally, I would say "neither". A katana is a katana. It is so distinct that calling it a name from the other half of the world is misinforming at best. It can be called a sword (I do call it a sword in Polish), as it cuts, thrusts etc. It can be called a sabre, as it is single edged and curvy. Yet again, it is simply a translation issue, as the true meaning of Japanese weapons pretty much depends on context (and Kanji) - so why bother?

Regards

Andrzej.

[Jeffrey Ching]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis

Hai,
All sabers/sabres are swords, but not all swords are sabers/sabres.

I think that we can finish the discussion with Jeff's statement.
Adding to it; all Japanese blades can be counted as swords, simply because their derivation of the words 'To' and 'Ken'. That only puts the kozuka out of the boat

[Thomas Powers]

I think the problem starts with using wikipedia for any definition!

Saber/sabre I myself hold with being designed for use from horseback and so we get the "Patton Model" saber that that is completely straight (as well as the English and European ones it was based on).

If used on shipboard and designed for that environment we get the cutlass.

Scimitar connotes a curved blade of middle east to central asian.

Katana is a katana

A light saber is a light saber because nobody could pronounce the correct name "DRFGHJKIOPJHGHKIOPJKGHG"

All my personal opinion

[Glen C.]

There seems to be a fair amount of confusion regarding terminology of any culture and society. Just a for instance, Patton never regarded his pattern as a sabre, or saber but the design was quite like the Swedish swords regarded as sabels (note riccasso block fuller and double edge and still categorized overall as a svard). Those in turn quite like other continental forms regarded by some as pallasch. Note particularly that the Patton sword bears less in common with the British and Spanish swords often lumped into that kettle (offset fullers, partial false edges). Meanwhile, a good many will always regard the Patton as a saber, when there was no basis in that description by the designer or the American military. The bowl guard ending up being the only real similarity once other visual profile comparisons have been realized.
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_svenska_armen.htm

There may be some contrary views even amongst Japanese culture, as there were swords adopted of quite western looking types, indeed some even manufactured in Germany.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

In the end, the root of all evil in the term of saber or saber was simply "to cut" and szabala becoming e definition for curved cutting swords. There have been some lengthy discussions here and elsewhere regarding the terminology and regarding just Japanese swords is probably a cultural context of words best regarded in that language, whether sraight of curved blades.

Cheers

Hotspur; attached are both a pallasch and sabre in the generalities of two swords some may regard as sabers