The pike and the downright blow

[William Elder]

I recently had the opportunity to do some drill as part of a pike square and I was struck by the thought that it would be the devil's own nuisance to swing a blade in the midst of all these poles, should it become necessary. Specifically, I thought of George Silver and his fondness for the downright blow...the only cut that I could envision making reasonably in the midst of a press-of-pike-gone-horribly-wrong.

I can think of a number of other reasons to favor the downright blow at backsword, but I wondered if anyone had experience/strong opinion/good historical source specifically relating to swordplay in or around pikes.

(Oh, and if anyone local to Seattle has a hankering to be a pikeman, drop me a PM.)

[M. White]

Different time period, but the account of Cynoscephalae in 197 B.C. has much to do with the Romans' use of scutum and gladius hispanensis vs the Macedonian sarissa infantry(pikemen, the sarissa is the 18 foot pike used in Macedonian phalanxes). So it might be helpful to have a gander at that.

Its also noteworthy that the petzhetaroi pikemen were eventually ordered by their king, Philip V, to lay down their pikes and duke it out with the legionaries using their shortswords and shields on the right wing. It didn't work well.

Hope that helps something

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Well, Fourquevaux suggested that targetiers chop up pikes. From the 1589 translation:

It is a moft certaine thing that the Targets will greatly anoy the enemyes Pikemen, in cutting off their Pikes with their Swords, which they might do without any great daunger, becaufe of the Targets which do couer them, & the Haftaries are at their heels do defend them : for if the Targets fhould get vnder the Pikes, they might eafily cut their throates, whileft the Haftaries do occupy them in fight.

Otherwise, he favored the thrust. His pikemen were meant to turn into targetiers, so this advice would apply to them:

And as for the Target men, I would haue them but onely to thruft at the face and legges, or at any other parte that were vnarmed.

Note that according to both Fourquevaux and Smythe, combat with swords was inevitable for pikemen. Fourquevaux wrote:

for you know that Pikes may ferue no turne after that the rankes are preaffed together, becaufe that the Souldiers are then as it were one in anothers necke: and therefore if the Pikemen had nothing but their Pikes and Swordes the Pike being abandoned they fhould be naked: for which caufe I have giuen them Targets to couer themfelues from blowes, and to fight in all places, what uneafe foeuer there were.

Smythe:

a fquadrõ of armed men in the field being readie to encounter with another fquadron, their Enemies, ought to ftreighten and clofe themfelues by frunt and flanckes, and that they haue giuen their firft thrufh with their Piques, and being come to ioyne with their enemies frunt to frunt, and face to face (and therefore the vfe & execution of the piques of the formoft rancks being paft) they muft prefentlie betake themfelues to the vfe of their Swords and Daggers; which they cannot with any celeritie draw, if the blades of their Swords be fo lõg: for (in troth) armed men in fuch actiõs, being in their rancks fo clofe one to another by flanckes, cannot draw their Swords if the blades of them be aboue the legth of three quarters of a yard, or a little more: befides that, Swords being fo long, doo work in a manner no effect, neither with blows nor thrufts where the presse is fo great, as in fuch actions it is; as alfo, that Rapier blades being fo narrow, and of fo fmall fubftance, and made of a verie hard temper to fight in priuat fraies, in lighting with any blow vpon armour, do prefently breake, and fo become vnprofitable.

Other than insisting on swords with short blades, Smythe doesn't say much about technique. His comment about rapiers, however, suggest blows were used.

[Kyle Fingerson]

William:

I am a longtime ECW and TYW reenactor who has served many years as a pikeman. A few years ago we attended an event at Ft. Creve Cour (Peoria, ILL) and out unit was posted to defend a "redoubt" made of brush. The Imperialists attacked us with overwhelming numbers. As their pikemen began to force their way over the brush, most of us found that we were engaged by 3-4 enemy pikers. Once the forced their pikes past our points we could still parry their pikes if you "foreshortened" your grip on the pike, say about half way up our 15' pikes. Once they got past our "foreshortened" grip a few of us dropped our pikes and drew our hangars. I know I was personally parrying 4-3 pikes like a madman! Using this technique, (many of the opposing force did not have swords) we eventually forced our opponents back!

This was similar to Cynocephalae. The pikes had the advantage until the Roman swordsmen got past the points of the pikes (inside their distance).
It is the same concept as getting past the point of your opponent's sword or any other weapon.

Kyle

[M. White]

(If some of you guys who are knowledgeable about pikes could have a gander at the thread I'm about to post in the ancient weapons forum about sarissa pikes and share your pike experience there, I'd be appreciative.)

[Van der Auwera Jurgen]

What I usually do when with three swordmen in armor, two of us the ones at the outside try to pull the pikes down with our swords when the middle person strikes the pikemen who's pikes are down, it works for me but not at all occasions

[Roel Oosterop]

Originally Posted by Van der Auwera Jurgen

What I usually do when with three swordmen in armor, two of us the ones at the outside try to pull the pikes down with our swords when the middle person strikes the pikemen who's pikes are down, it works for me but not at all occasions

Especially when the pikemen have the 'back up' of that great Flemish invention, the 'goedendag'. Jurgen, I've trained that with some friends from Belgium and France and please believe me, the combination of pike and goedendag is a true 'meat grinder'.

Regards, Roel

[Van der Auwera Jurgen]

It is a great weapon indeed but the balance isn't as good as a poleaxe, cause its heavy in the front, well the replica's I saw used, so it should be possible to pull them down and make room, but haven't seen it at it's best yet, maybe you can tell me where you have seen this? so that I can take a look as well or try my luck against it. In full plate of course

[Bob Brooks]

The zweihander is a most useful sword against pikes or other polearms, as no doubt the Swiss will concur.

One can truly set about a pikeman with all sorts of nastiness once his point is set aside.

Honourably,

Bob

[Roel Oosterop]

Originally Posted by Van der Auwera Jurgen

It is a great weapon indeed but the balance isn't as good as a poleaxe, cause its heavy in the front, well the replica's I saw used, so it should be possible to pull them down and make room, but haven't seen it at it's best yet, maybe you can tell me where you have seen this? so that I can take a look as well or try my luck against it. In full plate of course

Ah, full plate , I'm afraid the goedendag won't be very effective against it. I was more thinking of knights clad in maille.
Anyhow, we've tried to reconstruct the 'battlefield' use of the pike and goedendag (at the 2002 event in Kortryk), where the footsoldiers were standing in formation. The pikes were in the front rank (slightly open order), while the (staggered) second rank wielded the goedendag. The very moment a swordsman managed to get control over one (or more) pike(s) and moved in, a man from the second rank stepped through the 'gap' in the front rank, landing the goedendag on the swordsman's head. Of course the swordsman was wearing a helmet, so the blow would not be lethal, yet the strain on his neck will make him swagger for a moment; that's the time to 'ram' the spike (on top) of the goedendag through the maille.
This will only work for well-trained, disciplined troops, but IMO, several Flemish city militias WERE.

Regards, Roel

[Van der Auwera Jurgen]

too bad a big event like Kortrijk 2002 isn't something you see every day and I missed it damn. Probably was on tour myself.

[Roel Oosterop]

Originally Posted by Van der Auwera Jurgen

too bad a big event like Kortrijk 2002 isn't something you see every day and I missed it damn. Probably was on tour myself.

Well, it wasn't that big; some 50 participants overall and 'only' 20 on the battlefield. The good thing was, that all 20 fighters had met at other re-enactment fights, so we went a little further than usual.

Regards, Roel