Grosse Messer is a sweet sword. Why don't more make it?

[RobertPinewood]

The grosse messer is what would happen if a katana bred with a bastard sword.

It just looks sooooo cool.

Is Cold Steel the only one that makes it? Angus Trim makes a bastard saber but it just doesn't look as cool as a the Cold Steel grosse messer?

Will anyone ever make a full tang grosse messer that weighs less than or equal to 3 pounds and has that steak knife handle w/ the cross guard and a side ring on each side?

That would probably be the sweetest sword a geek could ever ask for.

[Skyler R.]

Albion has some coming out. You could also always go custom.


There are many many sword designs that you don't see in production, which is probably due to lack of interest. A grosse messer style must not have as many fans as other swords do, or else you would probably see more.

[RobertPinewood]

Albion, eh? hmmm. . .

By the way. I didn't notice the thread about the new tactical Angus Trim swords before I started the thread. Cool indeed. I like the steak knife handles.

There is a tactical messer somewhere on the site that was linked but no picture. Wonder if it's a tactical "grosse messer."

[Ben Bouchard]

For what it's worth, just about anything by Gus is going to outperform Cold Steel's lineup by a lot, even if it doesn't match the aesthetic you're looking for. Albion is also a great place for your sharp-thing monies to go. My guess is that the tactical messer is one of the one-handed variety, seeing as how the two-handed ones are the only ones worth of being dubbed "grosse"

[Jeremi S.]

Originally Posted by Ben Bouchard

For what it's worth, just about anything by Gus is going to outperform Cold Steel's lineup by a lot, even if it doesn't match the aesthetic you're looking for. Albion is also a great place for your sharp-thing monies to go. My guess is that the tactical messer is one of the one-handed variety, seeing as how the two-handed ones are the only ones worth of being dubbed "grosse"

Actually, period "grossemesser" ("big knife") were usually single-handed with a blade length of around 25 inches. The two-handed versions, with a blade length close to a yard, were often referred to as "kriegsmesser" ("war knife").

Albion has both a single-handed "grossemesser" and a two-handed "kriegsmesser" in the works.

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I've also seen them referred to as 'heibemesser' in a Czech book on collecting swords but I'm not sure what that word means. I made on in about '95, but there wasn't enough interest- mine or customers- to make more. Now- Hmmm...

[Scott Byler]

Originally Posted by Michael Tinker Pearce

I've also seen them referred to as 'heibemesser' in a Czech book on collecting swords but I'm not sure what that word means. I made on in about '95, but there wasn't enough interest- mine or customers- to make more. Now- Hmmm...

Well, if I were a rich man I'd take one if you made it. I have a period piece in mind for style. But, poorrrrr..... waahhhh.... I need to get some money together for that other little thing, anyway.... Anybody want to buy a kidney?

[Michael Stora]

[QUOTE=Michael Tinker Pearce;864483]I've also seen them referred to as 'heibemesser' in a Czech book on collecting swords but I'm not sure what that word means.[QUOTE]

Heiße messer is German for "hot knife", often a euphamism for cutting ability ("heiße messer durch die butter").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F

Mike

[RobertPinewood]

So. . .the Cold Steel "Grosse Messer" is actually a kriegsmesser.

By the way, the Albion grossemesser and kriegsmesser would look cool being carried together.

1,000+ dollars a pop and only 100 of each produced? Woah.

[Peter Rieder]

[QUOTE=Michael Stora;864503][QUOTE=Michael Tinker Pearce;864483]I've also seen them referred to as 'heibemesser' in a Czech book on collecting swords but I'm not sure what that word means.

Heiße messer is German for "hot knife", often a euphamism for cutting ability ("heiße messer durch die butter").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F

Mike

I think it´s more likely to mean something like "Hiebmesser", which means "hewing knife".

Cheers, Peter

[John Lundemo]

There is an Odin coming out this time next year (one of the last of the custom orders) It will be a replica of a antique, really excited about it.

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Originally Posted by John Lundemo

There is an Odin coming out this time next year (one of the last of the custom orders) It will be a replica of a antique, really excited about it.

COOL! I'm really looking forward to seeing that!

[BobJenks]

Not to muddy the waters any further but there's also the Langes Messer (Long Knife) which is somewhere between the Grosse Messer and the Kriegmesser. Still primarily a single-hander, its grip is longer than the short sword illustrated by Albrecht Durer and the Codex Wallerstien but shorter than the two-hander.

I had the wonderful experience of taking an intensive at WMAW 2005 on the Langes Messer led by Hans Heim and Jorg Bellinghausen of OCHS and the versatility of this fast, maneuverable blade soon had quite a crowd standing on the edges watching. The longer handle can be used for trapping or grasped with both hands for a real shearing cut. But it was the elaborate winding that's possible with this blade that had us all slack-jawed. (That and Hans' hysterical sense of humor!)

The attached picture is one of their custom made (none in production that I know of) aluminum blunts. I've been communicating with Christian Darce of Purpleheart Armory on making a comparable waster for practice. Those of us who would like to study this excellent weapon might start out with a much less expensive hickory blunt. If you are interested, drop Christian an e-mail and let him know there's a market for messers. He's got to take time out from filling orders to experimenting with new designs. It's easier to do that if there are people interested in the outcome .

I think Messers in their various forms are the best-kept secret of the WMA community. We need to pass the word.

Bob

[RobertPinewood]

Wow. Another good looking messer. So now there are 3. I've learned of the grosse, langes, and kriegs.

[BobJenks]

Originally Posted by RobertPinewood

Wow. Another good looking messer. So now there are 3. I've learned of the grosse, langes, and kriegs.

Robert, it gets better! There are also near relatives, like the Bauernwehr or the Hauswehr. I don't know much more than you do about them, but that's why the Sword Forum is such a rockin' place!

The picture I've attached is from an old thread by Peter Grassmann of original messer blades he owns. I'll include a link, though the pictures are no longer active. I hope it's okay with Peter if I attach the image. It looks like a close relative of the Langes Messer.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=66986

Coincidentally, Gus Trim just posted new photos of his Tactical line of swords:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=74686

Check out the Cuttoe! I've never heard of the Cuttoe before but it sure looks related to the Bauernwehr. Fun stuff, huh?!

Bob

[RobertPinewood]

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...asant-s-hanger

^^^ Is this the type of sword you are talking about?

-------
The cuttoe looks interesting. I think the design is based on some sort of french hunting sword.

[BobJenks]

Originally Posted by RobertPinewood

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...asant-s-hanger

^^^ Is this the type of sword you are talking about?

That's getting there. It's a littlle short - about 23". Cool hilt though! Interesting site. Coming full circle, look what I found:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/bonha...r-or-kriegsmes

No price range, but that one's a beauty!

Bob

[Walter Neubauer]

Hi Bob,hi all,

the Messers you seen at the seminar with Hans and Jörg are made from me and is still in production.
But the waiting period amounts 2 months at the moment.


Greetings from Germany

Walter

[PeterGrassmann]

The picture I've attached is from an old thread by Peter Grassmann of original messer blades he owns. I'll include a link, though the pictures are no longer active. I hope it's okay with Peter if I attach the image. It looks like a close relative of the Langes Messer.

Of course it's ok, Bob.

Here are more pictures. The first one is a "Langes Messer", but I'm not sure if it's from the late 15th or early 16th century. As far as I know, the terms "Langes Messer", "Großes Messer" and "Kriegsmesser" are not clearly seperated from each other, but from what I've seen so far, the big two-handed knifes are usually called "Große Messer" oder "Kriegsmesser", while the single-handed ones (like mine) are called "Lange Messer".





This one is a close relative, but it is called "Bauernwehr" or "Hauswehr". Those weapons do not have a guard (in contrast to the "Messer"), but they can be up to 90 cm long. This one has 70 cm.



- Peter

[Paul Bennett]

Lutel have two langes/krieg messers in the "knife" section of the website. Much cheaper than the suppliers listed above, and decent quality.

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

It appears that a wide variety of blades have the term 'messer' applied to them- not all alike or necessarily closely related! It's no real surprise that there's some confusion over terms either- look at the terms for double edged blades and there is just as much imprecision. Thanks for bringing more information (and photos) to us!

[BobJenks]

Originally Posted by Walter Neubauer

Hi Bob,hi all,

the Messers you seen at the seminar with Hans and Jörg are made from me and is still in production.
But the waiting period amounts 2 months at the moment.


Greetings from Germany

Walter

Walter, it's good to hear from you. I didn't realize they were in production. That's good to hear. I tried the link to your website from your post but it didn't work. Is there a modification to the address that would help?

I did a Google search of "trainingsschwert" and found Messerforum.net. Again, I didn't know there was such a thing! (Maybe Sword Forum and Messerforum should link to each other?) It's in German which I unfortunately don't speak (maybe it's time to start learning!) so I had Google's automated translater try to convert it to English. Only marginally useful, the results are hysterically funny! Little things like "messer" was changed to "measurer."

I really like the trainers you made for Hans. Any idea what the shipping costs are from Germany to the U.S.? And do customs pose any complications bringing even blunted "weapons" across borders in the Post-9/11 world? (If you want to PM the particulars, that would be fine.)

Bob

[Jeremi S.]

Originally Posted by Michael Tinker Pearce

It appears that a wide variety of blades have the term 'messer' applied to them- not all alike or necessarily closely related! It's no real surprise that there's some confusion over terms either- look at the terms for double edged blades and there is just as much imprecision. Thanks for bringing more information (and photos) to us!

Hi Tinker,

My understanding of a "messer" is an evolution of the falchion-- whereas the falchion was fitted to a sword hilt (cross, pommel, and a grip that sandwiched the slim, sword-like tang), the "messer" was fitted to a knife hilt (slab tang, wooden scales for a grip, with an integrated, low-mass "pommel"). And we all know how many variations of the falchion there were-- and that's assuming we don't count cuttoes, hangers, and backswords as evolutionary "falchion"!!!!!

[Angus Trim]

Originally Posted by PeterGrassmann

Of course it's ok, Bob.

Here are more pictures. The first one is a "Langes Messer", but I'm not sure if it's from the late 15th or early 16th century. As far as I know, the terms "Langes Messer", "Großes Messer" and "Kriegsmesser" are not clearly seperated from each other, but from what I've seen so far, the big two-handed knifes are usually called "Große Messer" oder "Kriegsmesser", while the single-handed ones (like mine) are called "Lange Messer".





This one is a close relative, but it is called "Bauernwehr" or "Hauswehr". Those weapons do not have a guard (in contrast to the "Messer"), but they can be up to 90 cm long. This one has 70 cm.



- Peter

Thank you Peter for posting these photos....

Happens I have patterns similar to both, and they're very likely to show up on the tactical lineup I'm doing.....

Thanks again Peter......

[J.T. Gagnon]

interesting stuff! Anyone else notice the similarity of the "bauernwehr" / "hauswehr" to the long choppers in the maciejowski bible, altho with a shorter handle? I've seen a couple of conversations where people were wondering what those choppers were, and that they had disappeared...maybe they didn't...