Cheness SGC Yamakami review...

[John Paul]

After much debate within myself, and countless hours of research about purchasing a Chinese made daisho from a relatively unknown MFG, I would like to give you a first hand, unbiased view of this new Chinese nihonto-style maker's SGC series that is currently available. Although I have a Bushido daisho made by Hanwei, and it is of great quality, I decided to purchase the SGC daisho made by Cheness (www.cheness.com) becuase I found the blade design interesting from a cutting performance standpoint. I did a lot of research on the internet and found many great resources out there to aid in my decision, but untimately I had to close my eyes and jump in the water with both feet

The first thing that I think anyone who's considering on purchasing a non-Japanese made nihonto-style swords is to simply do as much research as possible on the quality and construction of the item you're considering on purchasing. Do your own research as I have done and make up your own mind before you buy. I am certainly not an expert by any means but I do enjoy researching new products.

While I consider the Japanese made blades to be the highest quality and beauty that one could ever obtain, and I have many such blades in my own collection, we must also be realistic in the fact that many of us cannot afford to buy a $5000.00+ blade to hack at tatami mats with, and suffer possible permanent damage to it. This is a reality no matter how good you are at tameshigiri or nihonto martial arts. therefore, the quality Chinese made blades on the market today do offer a price attractive alternative solution... but you do have to be aware that there is also a lot of junk wallhangers coming out of China too... do the research before you buy!

Now, on with my findings on Cheness SGC series After my research I came to the conclusion that, for the money, everyone on the internet seemed to suggest that the Cheness blades were of good quality. However, the SGC line has only been on the market for a couple months so there really wasn't much unbiased info out there... which prompted me to write this finding. So... I placed the order for the Yamakami daisho and patiently awaited their arrival. The whole time I was wondering what I would receive, and would the quality be to the level of expectation that I had gained from past reviews on Cheness blades from others... I knew I was rolling the dice but for 500.00 it was worth taking the chance, and the company had a return policy so I was relatively safe in the purchase I felt.

The package arrived undamaged by UPS, this is the first hurdle to overcome When I opened the boxes I pulled out the display box. I will now sectionalize this post:

The display box:
Both the katana and wakasashi came with their own display boxes. The box came well made with locking mechanisms and an attractively made satin covering with dragon motifs. The lining was of a gold colored satin and also well made.

The sword Bag:
Both the katana and wakasashi came with their own sword bags. The bags are well made, and are made of black cotton with a white cotton lining. They were also beautifully tied in a special knot in the cords... much better than I could do and I haven't been able to duplicate it :-(

The SGC katana:
Drum roll please... As I began to unwrap the knot in the bag and pull the bag downward... the katana was unvailed. Upon inspection I found every aspect of the outside quality of the saya, tsuba, tsuka, sageo, and all the fittings to be of superior quality and every bit as good a quality as I've ever seen... Of course, you could tell that the fittings were machine made etc. but the quality was there... The tsuka is tightly wrapped and well made with cotton wrapping and real same...

So far, I was very excited to find that my expectations had actually been exceeded... but what about the blade? The most important part? So, I then began to unsheathe the blade from the saya. I found the habaki to be well fitted to the saya, and the fit was quite tight... which is what you want to find in a newly made blade. The habaki was brass and was as good a quality as I've ever seen. the blade was unveiled at last!!!! The blade is in a "tameshigiri polish" which is what you would expect to see.

The yokote line was a clear and fairly well defined. Without going into all of the intricate details of a blade, lets just say that from the kissaki to the munemachi all was well defined and the geometry of the blade was as good as I've ever seen - In a production blade of course...

The saya was a little rough in the internal finishing, and not smooth like you would find in a Japanese saya, but for 500.00 for the daisho this is excusable in my opinion.

The hamon is etched and well executed but, then again, because the blade is made out of through hardened 9260 spring steel, differential treating is not needed as this steel is very hard and very resiliant due to its alloy content and through hardening process. In fact, folding is not needed either... There's a lot of research that can be found on this type of steel on the internet... do the research and you'll see. Modern methods of steel production such as 9260 would make any smith of ancient times envyous, and were they with us today they would definately be taking advantage of it This particular steel is used in the production of automotive leaf springs, industrial bearings and gears where high tempuratures and extreme conditions are expected, etc.

How sharp is it? It came razor sharp and ready for tatami out of the box.

The sword is well balanced and feels good in the hands. I thought that perhaps the wider tsuka would be a problem for me, since I have relatively small hands, it was not an issue and actually feels good. By the way, the tsuka's on these blades are wider than the norm because of the width of the blades... For those of you with larger hands, or long fingers, you may find this a real comfort.

The Wakasashi:
Read the katana section as the wak was exactly the same in quality

While I have not cut with these blades yet, I would think that they will surely cut very well, just as the Cheness web video's suggest. Becuase they are made of 9260, the geometry of the blade should not weaken the strength of the blade and I would suspect that they can take the abuse of cutting bamboo, wet tatami, triple rolls, quad rolls, small trees, 2x2's, I think that the tsuka would fall apart before the blade would ever suffer major damage...

In summary, the Yamakami is of superior quality and quite beautiful in my opinion, and you can feel this quality when you hold them and look at them; I would depend my life on them in a real battle without question... All is tight, well fitted, and well made as good as I have ever seen in a production daisho. I would personally say that it's the best 500.00 I've ever spent on a daisho. I can't wait to cut with them!!! I have no doubt that they will perform beyond anything I could imagine

I hope that this post will aid you in your research and good luck.

[les yeich]

wait, let me get this straight. . . and i quote. . . "this steel is harder and stronger than any blade steel that has ever been made"? that's a very interesting statement. i think alot of smiths on here would disagree with you. and are you sure the tsuka-maki -and blade geometry itself, for that matter- is better than any japanese blade you've handled? despite claiming to own many in your collection, i think i'm going to have to call bs on that one. your write-up is fairly good, if you can go back and edit out some of the trumped claims. cheness blades are great values. for what they are, i think they really hit the spot. no offense, but i think you need to do quite a bit more research on alot of the aspects of the sword, as you're coming off as just really excited with a new purchase rather than an unbiased reviewer.

and just a friendly piece of advice to avoid future flaming: there's no such thing as a chinese nihonto

[John Paul]

Ok... I did change the wording a bit. I didn't think that people would be quite that stickler on wording. However, if there's a stronger and better steel handmade or otherwise than through hardened 9260, with superior strength and resiliant qualities than 9260, I'd sure like to know what it is...

Regarding "Chinese nihonto" I was using that term merely as a point of reference... clearly these are not true nihonto but I clarified with "nihonto-style"...

It is true that I am excited about my purchase but I also approached this purchase with caution and did all the research to warrent that end. I think that my write up is as close to unbiased as I could come to... Is there a better way? I agree that they are great values for the $$$, and I was impressed at the product.

Thanks for the critique and suggestions on clarification

[Dave Drawdy]

John,
welcome to the forums. you might consider putting some info about yourself in your profile, or sharing with us your experience with other blades for comparison, or maybe some details on your research. It is clear you are happy with the purchase, but there are a bunch of superlatives in there. And, for future reference, this kind of stuff goes in General and/or the reviews section.

Dave

[Mark Hudspith]

John,

Is there any chance of you posting some photographs of the sword please showing different angles than that shown on the website.

[John Paul]

Thank you Dave I'll definately do that, and thanks for the move. I tried to be as basic as possible because I can ramble on if I don't watch , and I didn't want to bore people

I suppose as far as comparison is concerned, I would have to say that I base my comparisons on the Hanwei Bushido daisho that I have, and also the shinto and koto period swords that I have in my collection as well.

Compared to the Hanwei, I would say that the SGC series is far better in fit and finish than the Hanwei "Practical Plus" daisho's, but not as pretty as the Bushido as far as fittings go. One must understand that the SGC's are meant for tameshigiri and are more of a "working" daisho, so they're very minimalist in feature / fittings but quality is not sacrificed in my opinion. As far as the steel is conserned, there's no comparison at all. 9260 steel is far superior to the steel used in most production swords today, and I dare say even traditional smith made blades - although I was scolded for this statement earlier. The fact is, 9260 steel is an industrial application steel and it's hard to compare it with anything that most smiths forge with. The coil springs and leaf springs in your car are made of 9260... What kind of abuse do you suppose your car springs take when you hit that big ole pothole? can you imagine using tamahgne for that application? How about 1024 steel? I don't think so... Now, perhaps there are smiths in the US and in Japan that are forging with this 9260 steel but I don't know of any so correct me on this point... the only common modern steel that I'm aware of that smithys might use is 1024, 1060, etc... which could never be compared to 9260 steel... Of course, 9260 could never be compared to traditional tamahagne either...

The only comparison I could make as far as the shinto and koto blades that I own is the basic shape of the SGC in terms of nihonto-style geometry. When it comes to beauty and style, there's obviously no comparison to the koto and shinto blades. Plus, the SGC is a very drastically different geometry than traditional forging and shape. I can only say that the mune, ha, machi, ji, etc. are correctly aligned to the proportions of the blade.

Again, I wish to stress that traditionally made blades are things of beauty and should be held in the highest regards in all respects. I only raise the fact that modern steel alloys are superior to the steels of old... otherwise we'd use the old stuff in our modern buildings, cars, airplanes, tools, etc. There's a reason why we don't... I am not saying the the SGC is the best thing to happen to sword manufacture, I merely suggest that one consider the differences in modern steels as opposed to the steels of old, and for 500.00 for a daisho made of 9260? It's hard to pass up... We've already seen the benefits of 1024 in nihonto, smiths and production blades have been using it for years... How will 9260 fare? We'll have to wait and see. My money's on the latter...

[John Paul]

Mark, I will do so as soon as I get a chance. However, I will say that the pics on the site are pretty good and represent the swords fairly well.

[les yeich]

not to start any hype (as i know this particular topic caused a bit of an uproar recently) but why don't you do a search on howard clark's blades from l6 steel. i'm pretty sure paul chen (the proprieter of cheness) would get quite a chuckle out of your claims! just for the record, truck springs are also commonly made of 5160, another steel that alot of smiths use for blades, and love. depending on the performance attributes you want from a blade, 9260 may not even be acceptable. w2, for instance, can be *very* hard. or 1086m. or 1095. heck, any high carbon steel.

[John Lundemo]

Originally Posted by John Paul

Thank you Dave I'll definately do that, and thanks for the move. I tried to be as basic as possible because I can ramble on if I don't watch , and I didn't want to bore people

I suppose as far as comparison is concerned, I would have to say that I base my comparisons on the Hanwei Bushido daisho that I have, and also the shinto and koto period swords that I have in my collection as well.

Compared to the Hanwei, I would say that the SGC series is far better in fit and finish than the Hanwei "Practical Plus" daisho's, but not as pretty as the Bushido as far as fittings go. One must understand that the SGC's are meant for tameshigiri and are more of a "working" daisho, so they're very minimalist in feature / fittings but quality is not sacrificed in my opinion. As far as the steel is conserned, there's no comparison at all. 9260 steel is far superior to the steel used in most production swords today, and I dare say even traditional smith made blades - although I was scolded for this statement earlier. The fact is, 9260 steel is an industrial application steel and it's hard to compare it with anything that most smiths forge with. The coil springs and leaf springs in your car are made of 9260... What kind of abuse do you suppose your car springs take when you hit that big ole pothole? can you imagine using tamahgne for that application? How about 1024 steel? I don't think so... Now, perhaps there are smiths in the US and in Japan that are forging with this 9260 steel but I don't know of any so correct me on this point... the only common modern steel that I'm aware of that smithys might use is 1024, 1060, etc... which could never be compared to 9260 steel... Of course, 9260 could never be compared to traditional tamahagne either...

The only comparison I could make as far as the shinto and koto blades that I own is the basic shape of the SGC in terms of nihonto-style geometry. When it comes to beauty and style, there's obviously no comparison to the koto and shinto blades. Plus, the SGC is a very drastically different geometry than traditional forging and shape. I can only say that the mune, ha, machi, ji, etc. are correctly aligned to the proportions of the blade.

Again, I wish to stress that traditionally made blades are things of beauty and should be held in the highest regards in all respects. I only raise the fact that modern steel alloys are superior to the steels of old... otherwise we'd use the old stuff in our modern buildings, cars, airplanes, tools, etc. There's a reason why we don't... I am not saying the the SGC is the best thing to happen to sword manufacture, I merely suggest that one consider the differences in modern steels as opposed to the steels of old, and for 500.00 for a daisho made of 9260? It's hard to pass up... We've already seen the benefits of 1024 in nihonto, smiths and production blades have been using it for years... How will 9260 fare? We'll have to wait and see. My money's on the latter...

Where do you get the 1024 in nihonto, that is barely more carbon that iron? That equivilant was used in the core only, and the outer layers had much more carbon, more like modern 1050 or 1060 after hammering out all impurities in the layers. Each country has it's own equivalent to modern 5160 alloy spring steel nowdays, 9260 could be China's equivalent, Europe has 55Crupp or something like that. Due to alloy content hamons are very hard to acheive, hence the phoney one on your new sword. Those types of steels can be very tough (when heat treated and tempered proporly) and 5160 is one of my favorites for double edged broadswords and most of my through quenched blades. But, This steel cannot reach the high rockwell hardness on the edge of say a W2 and 1075 through 1095. Which is the idea of a Japanese styled blade and you get a very nice hamon when done with clay coat. Super hard edge and soft spine. Plus you gave this full review praising the steel in your blade before test cutting. I hope it performs, as you claim it will out perform all other steels. If the heat treat and geometry is good it could be an excellent sword, for sure.

[Dave Drawdy]

Originally Posted by John Paul

Thank you Dave I'll definately do that, and thanks for the move. I tried to be as basic as possible because I can ramble on if I don't watch , and I didn't want to bore people

Thanks for understanding, and for the additional detail. Don't worry about rambling, most folks here are hungry for detail. I won't comment on the various steels you mention, other than that most production blades I have seen with 1040 or 1050 have been 'soft', they bend easily with a bad cut.
And am personally not crazy about the idea of a 'tameshigiri' blade, decent steel with cheap or poorly fitted mounts is just asking for trouble, IMO, although there is certainly a market for inexpensive cutters.

Dave

[Jerry G.]

The Cheness 9260s are very good at what they try to be- good handling inexpensive cutting blades. That's one of the reasons I have three of them.

The steel is a good compromise between hard and flexible...which is what amateurs like myself need. If you are skilled with a blade, however, you do not need to give up as much edge hardness for botched cut forgivability. A good swordsman would likely rather have a blade with a harder edge, better fittings, a true hamon and geometry idealized for his particular application. Your Bushido daisho is without a shadow of a doubt a nicer set of swords- I have a pair on order myself- and the Swedish powdered steel is excellent for differentially tempered blades.

Regardless of steel, are either pair as nice as a top-shelf production blade from Bugei, Dynasty Forge, etc? No.

As nice as a decent custom executed by a well-trained, experienced smith? Not by a long shot.

As nice as a custom blade by an upper-echelon smith? Not even in the same world.

As nice as a custom blade by a top-shelf "named" smith? Not even in the same galaxy.

As nice as a custom blade or nihon-to by any one of the top 10 smiths currently producing blades? Not even in the same epoch, universe and state of matter.

Of course, I'm just a newbie to these things and you may feel free to weight my words accordingly.

[John Paul]

Jerry,

I agree with you on all points however, most of the blades you're talking about would set you back at least 1000.00 minimum if I'm not mistaken. For a katana that is 269.00 that is made of steel that can be treated like this:

www.rsknives.co.uk/chenness.html

I'd like to see other blades that would stand up to this... Personally, I think this test says it all. Here's some tech specs on 9260 maybe some of you smithies out there can translate:

http://www.matweb.com/search/specifi...bassnum=m926aa

[John Paul]

Originally Posted by Dave Drawdy

Thanks for understanding, and for the additional detail. Don't worry about rambling, most folks here are hungry for detail. I won't comment on the various steels you mention, other than that most production blades I have seen with 1040 or 1050 have been 'soft', they bend easily with a bad cut.
And am personally not crazy about the idea of a 'tameshigiri' blade, decent steel with cheap or poorly fitted mounts is just asking for trouble, IMO, although there is certainly a market for inexpensive cutters.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I agree with the 10 series steels that you're talking about as well. I also agree with you about the mounts on most of the cheapies too but I was impressed at the tightness of the tsuka on these blades and the symetry of the grip. I do think that it would hold up to much abuse but then again I've not tested it myself, and I suppose time will tell... Worst case, one could send the bare blade to Fred Lohman and do it up real nice for 150.00... which I may do at some point anyway I just love the shape and feel of these blades, and the uniqueness of them. Kudo's to Cheness for pushing the envelope in my view!

[John Paul]

Originally Posted by John Lundemo

Where do you get the 1024 in nihonto, that is barely more carbon that iron? That equivilant was used in the core only, and the outer layers had much more carbon, more like modern 1050 or 1060 after hammering out all impurities in the layers. Each country has it's own equivalent to modern 5160 alloy spring steel nowdays, 9260 could be China's equivalent,

John,

Thank you - I believe that what I meant was the 1024 / 1060 mix you're referring too. I was being too generic in my statments early on because I didn't want to ramble Also, I agree that 9260 is the Asian equivalent to 5160... again being generic. I also posted a link to some of the specs on it... perhaps you could translate? I'm afraid that I only know what types of steels are used for from a basic standpoint... and not skilled at understanding the chemical compositions as you probably are.

[Jerry G.]

Originally Posted by John Paul

Jerry,

I agree with you on all points however, most of the blades you're talking about would set you back at least 1000.00 minimum if I'm not mistaken. For a katana that is 269.00 that is made of steel that can be treated like this:

www.rsknives.co.uk/chenness.html

I'd like to see other blades that would stand up to this... Personally, I think this test says it all. Here's some tech specs on 9260 maybe some of you smithies out there can translate:

http://www.matweb.com/search/specifi...bassnum=m926aa

No worries, JP...at least in my case, you proselytize to the converted.

If I'm not mistaken, what some people might be suggesting is that if you are adept enough to be wielding a blade safely, you shouldn't need a blade to stand up to such abuse. It's a very common theme here, I've noticed, and not without merit. I have observed that as I get more familiar with them, I have been moving from softer, tougher blades to harder, more traditional ones. Additionally, there is probably a latent desire among some of the more senior members to see newbie enthusiasm and superlatives tempered as they have seen many times over these same topics rehashed and various "fads" come and go.

I am very happy with my 9260's though. Just be aware that it is not some sort of miracle steel that makes obsolete those more commonly used by countless reputable smiths. If it were, a lot more of 'em would be using it by now. An analogy that you might consider is the wonderful work pioneered by Howard Clark with L6. It makes for a hell of a strong, abuse-absorbing blade(when tempered properly) compared to 1095 or tamahagene, but you are not going to see a lot of the other top smiths switch to it like moving from an abacus to a calculator because there are many other aspects to performance and aesthetics to consider.

Personally, I like having both thrifty 9260s that I can learn on and beat on if desired AND more expensive, traditionally-constructed blades that I can admire or use once I figure out how not to scoop cuts and can hit my target mark accurately and with good tip speed. If I interpret your words accurately, you are probably very similar in that regard. Have fun and be safe!

[Isrrael Ontiveros]

Excellent review! As this thread progresses, I will be able to learn more about the SGC series before I buy one. Thanks guys!

[John Paul]

Jerry G - you're right on! That is my point exactly. I suppose that I shouldn't come off as sounding like 9260 is some kind of excalibur quality steel or something, but that it is perfect for the type of newbie abuse just as you state... which I would be included in this class in my opinion However, I think that the geometry is very compelling from a cutting standpoint so I think that it just may out perform anything I've used... but I won't know until I try it. There are many differences with this blade than the traditional form so there's going to be a learning curve... as there always is

[John Paul]

Isrrael - Glad you like it.

I would also like to thank all who've participated in this discussion. Since this is my first ever post I didn't know exactly what to expect. I've learned a lot about wording and I am humbled to know that there are so many people out there with great knowledge! As I stated in my first thread, I'm definately no expert but I love new and interesting products to research... thanks for helping me out on that journey!