LL & PC pricing

[K. Cecil]

ROFLMAO !!


enough is to much.

Let there be peace.

LL pricing is the same everywhere you go. Period. With Chen pricing, you have this horrible flexability. Remember folks whent he PC Musashi came out. retail was something like 669 or some such. Well today you see it for like 5$ over cost on some sites and on E-bay.

Whats happening is this. Some few people who work a day job have a web site. And they sell the swords for a few bucks over cost, then come home from work and their like gee looky here I made 50$ extra while I was at work. Whoo Hoo !. They whore the price of the swords as a hobby to make some play money. Thus the indipendant sword sales sites struggle along to make a buck. Ya know, cause they are trying to make a living. And chen doesnt care cause they get their $$ when they sell to the retailer.

Meanwhile LL has a fair and level marketing field. Sorry but thats the way it is. All the retailers have the same price. Hense some offer free cleaning kits and such enticements to go along with the sale. Stuff that comes out of the retailers part of the profit but makes their sale different from the one next door. It really makes everyone TRY for your bussiness cause they all know you can just to go to the next place in line and get the same price on the sword.

SO this is the new battle cry against LL eh?

LoL

Why do they cost a different price than PC.. .. .. hmm cause they aint PC. Gee whiz that took me like ten secondst to figure out. guess Im a genius or something.

oh well (yawn) this is getting old .. .. .. again.

[les yeich]

when are we going to see the new ll, kevin? i admit i'm inerested.

[K. Cecil]

All I can say is soon. Im waiting just like everyone else on this one.

Currently the Koshirae is being made, then its on. But then we have to go through the prototypes and such. I say "we" cause I get to do the testing (big grin).

But I keep getting told "soon". Im starting to think he likes seeing me wait like a 5yr old in Christmas morning to see the first present. Its torture.

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by Phil Lau
Les yeich, maybe LL's don't fit in any of your niches, but the fact remains that they do for others. What fits for you is not the end all. Likewise, what fits for others isn't reason for everyone to buy an LL. Yes, other katanas of the same approx. price range will cut well too. The difference? LL will cut better. Whether it's a new practitioner or a seasoned veteran to JSA, the LL blades cut better. How much better? Maybe not tremendously better, maybe it's hardly even noticible for someone. Does that change the fact that it's still better in this regard? No.

Now should LL be cheaper? Can they be sold cheaper? What does it matter if you guys will hate them regardless because of their shoddy looks? And where does this machete business come into play? Why don't I just go buy a chain saw for $200? That'll cut thru a 3 foot thick tree without breaking a sweat. Completely off base, this machete stuff. Why is it off base? Cause we're talking about japanese style blades. Not machetes, not European, nor Mongolian, or any other style weaponary. Japanese style is what we're talking about, abit LL isn't nearly as traditional as most would prefer.

Here's a situation for you: You got $500 bucks and you want the best japanese style cutter you can get. Nothing else concerns you, just the best japanese style blade in terms of cutting performance in relation to JSA, namely tameshigiri practice of JSA. What's the best available given this situation? LL, Hands down. And that's all I'm saying. You want the best cutter? Go LL unless you can swing the big bucks on a custom. If you're gonna be finicky about anything or everything else, then go with something else. Doesn't seem like that difficult a concept.

Is it a narrow niche LL fills? Sure, I think so. But however small, the niche is still there. People can talk and talk about hype this, marketing that, blah blah whatever. Fact remains, sub $1000, you won't find a better cutter. Not you won't find another GOOD cutter, you won't find a BETTER cutter. There's your niche.

But its only a good cutter because it has less niku. Unless I'm missing something. The machete is used to illustrate the fact that a very thin piece of metal with a sharp point will cut like lightning. However, it is a lot more likely to take a set.

[Phil Lau]

Originally posted by Leighton T.
But its only a good cutter because it has less niku. Unless I'm missing something. The machete is used to illustrate the fact that a very thin piece of metal with a sharp point will cut like lightning. However, it is a lot more likely to take a set.

If you read again the context of the original statement I was responding to, the suggestion was to get a machete in place of a LL if a narrow niku was what I was looking for. My response indicated that looking for a japanese style cutter automatically rules out les yeich's suggestion.

Regardless, that still means a better cutter, no? I never said LL's could take on a brick wall or any wall for that matter.

And evidence semvidence on the deep sori. I've said it already and I'll say it again: evidence that, sword stats this, visuals whatever... fact remains, when cutting, the LL works the best. Cuts are easier, cleaner, and take thru goza and the likes better than PC, Kris, CS... so on and so on. Of all my class mates that have used the LL Tsunami, none walked away without complementing the speed and cutting prowless of the sword. That's evidence enough in my opinion - live use by a number of students of Iai.

As far as the liveblade katana, two of the guys in the night class on Wednesday uses them. One keeps to himself, never really socializes with anyone before or after class and the other guy is a grade-A jerk. He likes to rattle on about how he knows this guy, and his uncle is friends with that guy and how he gets all this great stuff for free. Then he goes and laughs at some of the students who work with lower end swords. Ironically, for all his bragging, his footwork and hip movement sucks. Not just suck every once inawhile, suck as in a tree stump is more graceful than he. Point being, he talks enough that I know he has a liveblade with custom fitting this and whatnot that.

[Christopher Kenji Gleeson]

I have some questions about the effects of sori on cutting.

The primary reason people say LL's are great cutters is the niku and the sori...correct?

Ok, so lets set the niku aside, since we all seem to agree about its effects on cutting.

So that leaves the sori.

When people say that LLs are great cutters....what do they mean?

Do they mean that the cut felt very good?

Do they mean that the cut was very straight, and well placed on the target?

I think these may be two different things.

Because of the geometry, I have no doubt that a blade with a deep sori may feel very good. The COG is closer to the hand, and even if one does not have much draw in their cut, the shape facilitates a smooth cut.

However, does that make it a better cut?

I'm not so sure. Cutting is a measure of the swordsman/woman, not the blade, not the target material. Cutting is supposed to be a mirror for us to examine our technique. (At least, from the viewpoint of a JSA student...if you are cutting just for fun, then this post is not directed at you).

So if a blade with deep sori is making my cuts better, it is not making ME any better. If I switch to a blade with less sori, and lose the advantage of that blade geometry, then my cuts are no better for having used the blade with deep sori.

So does a deep sori HELP us? My feeling is no, it does not help US, but it may help the feeling of cutting. Somewhat like training wheels when you are learning to ride a bike. They help improve our technique, but then at some point we are able to improve our technique without such aid.

If our goal as JSA students is to be the best swordsmen/women possible, than shouldn't we measure ourselves to the strictest metric? Shouldn't we gage our growth by looking at the worst case senario?

In my humble opinon, one should cut with whatever blade they choose. However, I feel that a blade designed specifically for cutting _practice_...may help our cuts...but does not help us grow as much as a blade that challenges us.

One disclamer: I know that some dojos use LL blades, and some also really like LL blades for their students...I assume that Mr. Cecil is a member or instructor of such a school.

I want to state very plainly, that this post is in no way intended to diminish or look down upon ANY school, dojo, or martial artist that chooses to use such blades in their training. I respect whatever decision those schools decide to make.

I simply feel that for me personally, I do not want to learn on a blade made for practice...I want to learn on a blade made for war.

Thank you all for listening to my $0.02.

Best Regards.

Christopher.

[M. Reid]

Originally posted by Eric Conrad
As already stated, it really depends on what you want to use the sword for. A Howard Clark L6 bainite will make a better cutter than any nihonto, I dont care how expensive, but certainly wouldnt double as a musem piece.

If looks are the most important, get a Chen because they have better Koshirae. Of course Chen blades make as good a production cutter as any so either way you will have a good blade

Again, I believe Masamune's works are superior to Howard Clark's but they both worked in different styles, and who here has a masamune to compare to a Bainite L6. However I would never pay upwards of 600,000 for a Masamune when I can get Bainite L6 for a hundred times less. Good work Howard on the L6.
It is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Phil Lau]

Ever notice how a better cutting blade gives you more feedback as to which of your mechanics is in error after a tough cut? ... ie... hip rotation, acceleration, bone-to-bone alignment. It's very difficult to find exact points to improve when the cut reads the same when it's perfect, near-perfect, or kinda-perfect. A better cutting blade relieves much of this feedback problem for me in tameshigiri.

Yes, I competely agree; it is about improving ourselves as practioners of the art. However, my feeling is that at one point, taxing yourself overall becomes less productive than focusing on one area, and improving specifics... details. Whether it's improvement measured in micro-seconds or micro-meters.

An analogy when I practice billiards. In order to help me focus on improving my english control (spin on the ball and amount of it for all those non-pool players), I setup easier shots. This way, I'm focusing completely on the english I set on the cue, and the speed and range thereafter. I don't have to worry about my aiming angle, my initial reach control, or most anything else. Likewise, when I want to focus specifically on aiming practice, I setup more difficult angles but ignore the travel of the cue after contact. In this way, I'm focusing just on aiming and I get much better feedback on the small details.

In the same way, this helps me improve my mechanics in Iai. Narrowing the focus in my stronger cuts on thicker rolls and getting more feedback on the little things. Hard to explain exactly but I hope you know what I mean...

This is not to say other approaches don't work, this is just the best way I've found to improve on my own mechanics.

[Leighton T.]

Mr. Gleeson, well put.

Mr. Lau, I've never heard of a better cutting sword giving you more feedback than an inferior sword. How exactly does it work? Can you explain it for us, or at least me.

[Christopher Kenji Gleeson]

Mr. Lau

Good point. I see there are many good points on both sides of this fence....this thread is starting to make me want an LL to spend some real time with...my exposure so far has been very time limited.

All:

About the L6: Does anyone else feel the L6 worship is getting a little out of hand?

I mean NO disrespect to Mr. Clark. I would buy an L6 in a _hearbeat_ if I had the money....but it makes me wince when people put it above all other blades...like it was perfect.

Nothing is perfect.

Best Regards.

Christopher.

[Cyril Statum]

Regarding sori. I have a A Trim Swedish bastard sword Mark II and it has zero sori and it cuts as well as any katana I have tried. BTW, I like katanas and have a Keicho Shinto I am awaiting on delivery. Regards

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by Christopher Kenji Gleeson
All:

About the L6: Does anyone else feel the L6 worship is getting a little out of hand?

I mean NO disrespect to Mr. Clark. I would buy an L6 in a _hearbeat_ if I had the money....but it makes me wince when people put it above all other blades...like it was perfect.

Nothing is perfect.

Best Regards.

Christopher.

Yes. The L6 won't cut any better, well not noticably so than his 1086 model. It just holds up to abuse much better.
Of course, Howard might contribute to his own L6 worship. He does advertise it as a superkatana on his website. Or it could just be the webmaster.

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by Cyril Statum
Regarding sori. I have a A Trim Swedish bastard sword Mark II and it has zero sori and it cuts as well as any katana I have tried. BTW, I like katanas and have a Keicho Shinto I am awaiting on delivery. Regards

A good point. I completely forgot about European swords and Chinese gims. These swords are straight, but they can cut like a laser. I would be inclined to say that sori doesn't help cutting ability. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Christopher Kenji Gleeson]

A good point. I completely forgot about European swords and Chinese gims. These swords are straight, but they can cut like a laser. I would be inclined to say that sori doesn't help cutting ability. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I didn't think of that example, but that is getting at my eariler point.

I think maybe the biggest advantage of deep sori, is the _feeling_ of the cut.

Plus with a big sori (from a warfare pov) you have more mass and less reach than a blade with a shallow sori, and the same nagasa.

Best.

Christopher.

[les yeich]

quick points:
yes, i feel the bl6 worship is sometimes a little blind, but i wouldn't doubt it's the toughest, most technologically advanced(hehe!) katana out there. i personally chose the 1086 over it, though.

sori: everyone has their own opinions here. sometimes i like a shallower sori, as it has sort of a "thunk" to cuts that i really like. if you know what i mean, then you know what i mean. as far as a better cutter giving more response, this is true to an extent. to keep it on topic, the problem with the no niku blades is that they give *no* response, they just sort of sail through. in other words: bad news for a serious ma practitioner, outside of competition cutting.

[Dorian Lang]

Originally posted by Leighton T.
A good point. I completely forgot about European swords and Chinese gims. These swords are straight, but they can cut like a laser. I would be inclined to say that sori doesn't help cutting ability. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

You didn't just put Chinese gims and cuts like lasers in the same line. And I thought you had some sence of chinese swords, gims aren't even designed to cut, heck, most of the time if you try and use a gim for anything more then a tip cutter it will breack, or even funnier bounce of your target. The're fencing swords, light, p.o.b. at the guard, most have a sweet spot (5-7" from the guard) that make them almost imposible to cut with the blade below two to three inches from the tip. At 32" blade length for a gim thats pretty bad. The pointy end goes into the bad guy!!!

Now don't get these confused with anceint chinese gims, at 25" and below, with broad blades, used for hacking. Same once the japanese had when they took the islands away from the locals.

PS I'd love a Gim cutter, but the truth is that is fantasy that people see in movies.

[Eric Conrad]

It is like comparing apples to oranges

Not really. a Masamune and a L6 are both katanas that you could use to cut with in my example. The difference being that the L6 is far more durable than tamahagane. This isnt a slight on Masamune or other godly nihonto, just a reality of modern technology. My illustration was to show that the price of a sword doesnt necessarily equate to it's performance

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by Dorian Lang
You didn't just put Chinese gims and cuts like lasers in the same line. And I thought you had some sence of chinese swords, gims aren't even designed to cut, heck, most of the time if you try and use a gim for anything more then a tip cutter it will breack, or even funnier bounce of your target. The're fencing swords, light, p.o.b. at the guard, most have a sweet spot (5-7" from the guard) that make them almost imposible to cut with the blade below two to three inches from the tip. At 32" blade length for a gim thats pretty bad. The pointy end goes into the bad guy!!!

Now don't get these confused with anceint chinese gims, at 25" and below, with broad blades, used for hacking. Same once the japanese had when they took the islands away from the locals.

PS I'd love a Gim cutter, but the truth is that is fantasy that people see in movies.

You've obviously been watching too much Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and wushu competitions and have no idea of what the gim is capable of.

[les yeich]

Originally posted by Leighton T.
You've obviously been watching too much Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and wushu competitions and have no idea of what the gim is capable of.

or he's heard the myth that the last few inches of a jian should vibrate when you gather your chi, so the blade has to be *really* wobbly.

i've only handles a few true antique jians, but they were all actually surprisingly stiff. (they weren't stiff, per se, just stiffer than i thought they would be.) i have no dooubt they would cut well, and the modern replicas i've owned were all great cutters.

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by les yeich
or he's heard the myth that the last few inches of a jian should vibrate when you gather your chi, so the blade has to be *really* wobbly.

i've only handles a few true antique jians, but they were all actually surprisingly stiff. (they weren't stiff, per se, just stiffer than i thought they would be.) i have no dooubt they would cut well, and the modern replicas i've owned were all great cutters.

Lol, I've never heard that one before.

A quick trip down to the Chinese Swords and Swordsmanship section of this forum provides a whole heck of a lot of information of jians and their cutting ability, use and characteristics.

[Angus Trim]

Originally posted by Dorian Lang


PS I'd love a Gim cutter, but the truth is that is fantasy that people see in movies.

Where in the world did you get this?

The truth of the matter is that an antique jian {or gim if you prefer} has a center of gravity out from the guard roughly 4 to 6 inches, with 6 being more common than 4. In a percentage thing, the cog is ussually between 35 and 40% measured from the end of the pommel towards the tip.

Yep, these swords are good tip cutters, but they're also decent cutters at the cop once you factor size and mass in......

The modern made so called gims for form work are what has the cogs close to the cross. They look like the real thing, but its strictly a two dimensional thing, and they're just for form work....

The myth is that gim are worthless swords and Chinese swordsmanship sucks. The truth is that the gim/jian is an excellent cut and thrust sword, and the gim sword arts are the equivalent of their euro singlesword arts........

Auld Dawg

[les yeich]

so when are we going to see an atrim jian?

[Leighton T.]

Please make an affordable gim for us all Gus. Please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top. Lol.

[Phil Lau]

Originally posted by les yeich
quick points:
yes, i feel the bl6 worship is sometimes a little blind, but i wouldn't doubt it's the toughest, most technologically advanced(hehe!) katana out there. i personally chose the 1086 over it, though.

sori: everyone has their own opinions here. sometimes i like a shallower sori, as it has sort of a "thunk" to cuts that i really like. if you know what i mean, then you know what i mean. as far as a better cutter giving more response, this is true to an extent. to keep it on topic, the problem with the no niku blades is that they give *no* response, they just sort of sail through. in other words: bad news for a serious ma practitioner, outside of competition cutting.

On a single or light target, you're right. There is not much feedback. However, as I mentioned before, thick rolls give excellent feedback.

To answer Mr. Leighton's question and what I just mentioned, here's how and why I use LL Tsunami with my better cuts. With my stronger cuts, I can fairly easily control how much of my cut comes from which part of my body. Hips for power, bone-to-bone alignment for rigidity, arms for speed... etc... So, taking a thick roll... ie... 3-4 mats-ish, I start my cut slow tracking till the blade is ~6 inches away from the target, then I accelerate with medium speed and cut with my hips stepping into the cut. While this makes the cut more difficult, with the LL Tsunami, I can still complete the cut but I get alot of feedback regarding at what point the energy from my hips follows into the sword and how much of the cut I had to rely on my acceleration for. This helps me with timing and power transfer.

The same thing with a slower cutter won't follow through and I won't get nearly as much feedback with an unfinished cut. So why do I say LL is a better cutter? Because using any other sword I can't complete the cut repeatedly.