My tsuba design, bum bum bum

[Mitch Drews]

Greetings all,
I commissioned Antonio Cejunior over at www.arscives.com/bladesign , to do a tsuba design and this is what he came up with. It's grass calligraphy, very interesting stuff. Antonio did the paper design and Eric Litton http://geocities.com/xtro_e/index.html did the 3d rendering and the little rotating image on the bottom of the page.
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/Images/Tsuba00.gif
As I understand it they work as a team, Antonio will do the design and then Eric will do the rendering.

Both first class guys to work with, IMHO. Here's the link to the page Antonio set up with my design:
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/tenshitsuba.htm

I'd post more images from the site but they're all pretty big and they'd balloon out the post.

I love the design on this tsuba, the writing means Heaven & Earth. The grass calligraphy first had me kinda confused, but I e-mail Antonio and he explained it to me.
This is also an interesting feature, as the site quotes: The shape of the tsuba had to be square, because it is from Earth, but as Yin - Yang or Yi-Yo, it should contain the opposite, which is Heaven. So the corners were rounded in four quarter circles.
There is one feature of this tsuba that I really like, the cut out design rather then a gold inlay or even an engraving on a solid tsuba. It conveys the relatively complicated design of the grass calligraphy w/o being IMO obtrusive.

You'll notice that the nakago-ana is off, that is by design. Like Antonio's Katsujin-ken tsuba. Cool beans, no?!?

-Mitchell R. Drews

[AnthonyWoo]

Topnotch !!
Congratulations.

[Sherman Chow]

Dude,
that is very awesome! I was thinking about a way to include a lot of Kanji on tsuba once, but couldn't think of too many ways to have it. I mean, you could have them cut out(sukashi?), and you could have them like this tsuba from Patrick Hastings:

http://www.bladefittings.com/Galleri...nd%20Kanji.htm

Intially, I thought that there were some kanji that you could not cut out, but, man, I suppose Antonio solved that problem with grass calligraphy. Ah ha.

By the by, Mitch, who would you commision to make that beauty?

Sherm

[A. Bakken]

Congratulations,
That looks very nice indeed (and this comes from someone who normally doesn't like sukashi tsubas at all)! A bit dizzying if you look too long at that spinning image, though...

[Mitch Drews]

Originally posted by Sherman Chow
Dude,
that is very awesome! I was thinking about a way to include a lot of Kanji on tsuba once, but couldn't think of too many ways to have it. I mean, you could have them cut out(sukashi?), and you could have them like this tsuba from Patrick Hastings:

http://www.bladefittings.com/Galleri...nd%20Kanji.htm

Intially, I thought that there were some kanji that you could not cut out, but, man, I suppose Antonio solved that problem with grass calligraphy. Ah ha.

By the by, Mitch, who would you commision to make that beauty?

Sherm

Right now Antonio is making inquiries in his area about people who may beable to construct it. I had originally contacted on individual in particular, but their price was rather steep so I'm looking around right now.

-Mitchell R. Drews

[Ford Hallam]

I notice this is quite an old topic but I'm wondering why this design ( for a katana I assume) was made upside down.

I read Mr Cejunionr's explanation regarding the symbolism of the design but found no reference to the fact that when worn as a katana is customarily worn the kanji will be just a confusing jumble as they will be inverted.

Is there some mysterious reason the usual convention for tsuba design has been ignored?, or is this tsuba perhaps intended to go on a tachi mounted sword and worn hanging edge down?

With tsuba made for display and not intended to be mounted it also follows that they are shown as they'd be worn on a mounted sword.

regards,

Ford

[Glen C.]

Hi Ford,

On the other hand, it reads correctly when held in the hand for use. Maybe that is the meaning and intent of Antonio's creation.

As he is not around this neck of the woods to reply, you might want to contact him directly.

Also, as an aside. The tags for the spinning gif have been removed in the first post of the thread as animations were deemed verboten here some years ago. I'm not sure Antonio would be thrilled with anyone hot-linking images from his site anyway.

Cheers

Hotspur; if Dave wants to shuffle the discussion somewhere else, that's fine as well

[Ford Hallam]

Hello Glen,

thanks for replying

Yes, I realised that it would "read" correctly when the sword was drawn but it seems to me in that situation, ie; facing a man with a long pointy sharp thing the last thing you'd be doing is admiring the esoteric meaning displayed by the tsuba

But, as you suggest, perhaps I should ask Mr Cejunior himself.

thanks again,

ford

[Glen C.]

Or, simply admiring the sword itself. Perhaps even an umounted tsuba as art.

[Aaron Justice]

Originally Posted by Ford Hallam

Hello Glen,

thanks for replying

Yes, I realised that it would "read" correctly when the sword was drawn but it seems to me in that situation, ie; facing a man with a long pointy sharp thing the last thing you'd be doing is admiring the esoteric meaning displayed by the tsuba

But, as you suggest, perhaps I should ask Mr Cejunior himself.

thanks again,

ford

Well, remember, if someone had a tsuba with an English word on it, and the swordsman (this is of course assuming an english speaking person) was looking at the sword, waiting for movement, visually he would recognize the word instantly. I would assume the same goes here.

A while ago I wanted to get a custom tsuba made but never got around to it. One side would read "heaven" in kanji, the other side "Hell". As sort of a humorous statement, the Heaven side would point toward the wielder, suggesting a heavenly ability, or a Kensei "Sword Saint". The "Hell" side, facing the opponent, would suggest the destination of the Kensei's opponent.

Never got it made, but still interested in doing it sometime.

[tom geusz]

I wonder what the Kanji for "kindly extend your neck a little more to the left" would read? Maybe a little long winded perhaps?

[Rubem Bastos]

Tom,

"oops" should be enough!
Nice nice tsuba, Mitch! Hope to see it mounted!

[Rubem Bastos]

double post

[M. Steinbroner]

Aaron - I made a quick model-

I like your idea so much I might steal it!


Cheers,

Matt

[Ford Hallam]

Well my query as to why the usual convention, one followed for more than 600 years, was overturned like this. As someone who's spent nearly 30 years as an artist craftsman and the last 18 specialising in the Japanese tradition I take great care are to study and respect tradition and out of that to develop my own art.

Innovations like turning the entire art-form, literally, upside down, if dared, must be very well considered. In my opinion. Doing things differently, without a real appreciation of why things were done in the conventional way, seems to me to be a very superficial way of being original.

As we're taking about the aesthetic aspect of tsuba it might be worthwhile looking at what it's function was in that regard.

The tsuba was viewed, almost without exception, when the blade was resting in it's scabbard (saya). Either at the side of the man wearing it or on a sword rack ( katana-kake). In both these positions the blade is edge upwards.

The decorative aspects and aesthetic qualities that the tsuba displayed was a way for the owner to signal his cultural refinement, social status and his personal beliefs and allegiances. All of this "communication" was considered important in peaceful, social interactions. It can safely be said that this accounts for the aesthetic function of the tsuba. It's combat function requires no aesthetic or decorative considerations at all.

To completely discard the whole aesthetic function of the tsuba merely to try and display the decorative aspect in the defensive role of the guard seems to me to demonstrate a serious misunderstanding of what a tsuba was, and still is.

This was why I asked if there was a hidden meaning as to why this was done. I've emailed Mr Cejunior on Sunday, and tried to join his forum, but as yet have received no reply.

In my view though, this is simply a mistake. There seems no plausible reason why the design is upside down. I'm unconvinced by suggestions that one's opponent could now see the design as this requires that for 99.99% of the remaining time, when not engaging an opponent, the tsuba is upside down and thus "illegible".

I'm making this point merely so that in future anyone else who fancies making a tsuba for themselves is at least a little better informed and doesn't need to try and come up with some sort of tortured rationale after the fact.

We all make mistakes as we're learning. There's no need to perpetuate them though

respectfully,

ford hallam

[Jonathan Frances]

I would hazard that the convention was overturned for one of two reasons, or possibly both:

The guy making it thought it would be cool.
The guy buying it thought it would be cool.

Historically, traditionally correct can mean a bunch of things. Square tsuba, round tsuba, big tsuba, aikuchi, right? Why not play with the conventions?

Obviously the guy liked it enough to buy it and presumably mount it. In a historical context, isn't it considered to be in relatively poor taste to comment on how another individual chooses to express themselves via their armaments?

[Ford Hallam]

Jonathan,

I think you may have a point, that someone thought this was "cool". However, if that is the case then it proves one of my points. That this expression is a very superficial one that hasn't really considered the subject very deeply at all.

I'm all for playing with conventions, all artists and designers do. The important thing is to understand the field your attempting to work in.

If an automobile designer decided it'd be "cool" to have square wheels I reckon we'd easily see where his design failed.

Imagine if a typeface designer ( the person who creates the fonts we read) decided it would be cool to use a font that was a mirror image. It may well look funky but I think you'd agree it would be a real strain to read text like that.


"Obviously the guy liked it enough to buy it and presumably mount it"

Nothing obvious about it, perhaps "the guy" didn't know any better.

"In a historical context, isn't it considered to be in relatively poor taste to comment on how another individual chooses to express themselves via their armaments? "

I was not commenting on how an individual chooses to express themselves at all. My questions were about the reasons for turning the design upside down. A perfectly reasonable question and perfectly politely put.

As for the historical context, it would depend on which culture you mean. In pre-modern Japan this sort of total disregard of convention, especially using calligraphy, would mark the wearer out as being a very suspect character and quite likely result in serious criticism.

Of course, today in America, you're free to whatever you like but you'll find that in Japan there'll be no acceptance of this sort of "wackyness". I was merely trying to provide a little bit of context and education should anyone get the mistaken idea that tsuba designs are usually orientated this way.

regards,

Ford Hallam

p.s. An aikuchi doesn't have a tsuba.

[Jason Anstey]

Originally Posted by Ford Hallam

Jonathan,

I think you may have a point, that someone thought this was "cool". However, if that is the case then it proves one of my points. That this expression is a very superficial one that hasn't really considered the subject very deeply at all.

I'm all for playing with conventions, all artists and designers do. The important thing is to understand the field your attempting to work in.

If an automobile designer decided it'd be "cool" to have square wheels I reckon we'd easily see where his design failed.

Imagine if a typeface designer ( the person who creates the fonts we read) decided it would be cool to use a font that was a mirror image. It may well look funky but I think you'd agree it would be a real strain to read text like that.


"Obviously the guy liked it enough to buy it and presumably mount it"

Nothing obvious about it, perhaps "the guy" didn't know any better.

"In a historical context, isn't it considered to be in relatively poor taste to comment on how another individual chooses to express themselves via their armaments? "

I was not commenting on how an individual chooses to express themselves at all. My questions were about the reasons for turning the design upside down. A perfectly reasonable question and perfectly politely put.

As for the historical context, it would depend on which culture you mean. In pre-modern Japan this sort of total disregard of convention, especially using calligraphy, would mark the wearer out as being a very suspect character and quite likely result in serious criticism.

Of course, today in America, you're free to whatever you like but you'll find that in Japan there'll be no acceptance of this sort of "wackyness". I was merely trying to provide a little bit of context and education should anyone get the mistaken idea that tsuba designs are usually orientated this way.

regards,

Ford Hallam

p.s. An aikuchi doesn't have a tsuba.

For a really old thread, this has turned out to an interesting discussion. On one hand I believe that if the buyer is happy then that is all that matters on that piece.

On the other hand I personally agree with Fords analysis. I am a traditional martial artist - who also happens to have been in graphic design for 23 years. I have been to many Iaido seminars over the years, in Japan, England and Australia. I have seen only the rare few swords that stand out - and I don't mean that in a positive way.

In my experience type of self expression is not normally appreciated in the Japanese culture and the Japanese sword strikes to the very heart of their cultural values.

So while Fords posts may not be popular with many people here I think he has made some very good points indeed. I hope that people can think about this point of view as it applies to a traditional object in a traditional setting.

[Glen C.]

The customer is always right?

To the best of my reckoning, Antonio has been fairly absent even from his own board and enjoying life with family. Mitch was 20 when posting about this and his last posts to this board about a year later. That last presence from Mitch was asking how to remove some dreaded black spots from his Hanwei PK.

Somehow I don't see the need to present resumes and cultural exactitude in critique of such a small example of one's collaboration as an artist. However, some readers may choose to reflect a bit on Antonio's own philosophies and work. One could also take the time to take a look at Mitch's thoughts in the past.

A good bit of Antonio's thoughts on art are lost in threads trimmed from the pub here but there is also a great deal one could find here and elsewhere.

Cheers

Hotspur; Just some thoughts and observations

[Jason Anstey]

I am not criticising Antonio one bit. I think he does some superb work for sure, I am a member of his forum and I do enjoy chatting with him, although it has been a while.

I do think there has been some good observations made in this follow up post. This follow up topic probably warrants its own thread as I think there are some good points being made, but I also agree with you Glen that these observations should not really be about this specific artist, designer, tsuba or the person that commissioned the piece.

[Ford Hallam]

oops, apologies if I've over stepped the bounds of accepted discussion here. I had assumed this forum was concerned with a certain degree of historical accuracy and respect for the integrity of the subject we study and enjoy. My question in this case seems to have, instead, provoked a very defensive response from members who evidently know very little about the issue I queried. My intention was merely to explore the rationale behind turning this long standing convention upside down.

I hope, never the less, I've at least managed to add a little with regard to the classical understanding of tsuba but now that I have a better idea as to how serious academic discussion is regarded here I'll take my leave.

Ford

p.s. Glen, I did in fact have a look at Mitch's previous posts. I came to the conclusion he wasn't particularly well versed in the nuances of Japanese sword design or aesthetics. For that matter pretty much everything I've read and seen from Mr Cejunior leads me to feel he also is not particularly well qualified in this field either. But, if as you suggest, the customer is always right then I guess anything goes.

[Jonathan Frances]

I certainly hope I didn't turn you off from conversation here, such was absolutely not my intent.

I do think it is important to question topics from time to time, and it is great to get the perspective of people who put in the diligent study of how it was done traditionally. It seemed to me like there might have been a little disapproval of the execution mixed in with raising the historical point, which is what I was responding to.

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about the classical execution of the medium, aside from what I've been able to glean from others. One thing that seems to pop up a lot is that in a craft that spanned so many centuries, someone can point to just about any variable as having historical precedent - see any conversation regarding "absurdly long tsuka" as an example.

Seems like a lot of weird stuff that was done across the spectrum of swords- retaining clips, saw-tooth edges, leather instead of samegawa. Menuki in the right place, menuki in the wrong place, menuki missing altogether... look hard enough and you can find a historical justification for just about anything.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to imagine that some samurai would have thought the idea that an ideogram that is presented while, say, holding his sword in chudan no kamae, would be interesting. Perhaps not the norm, but I bet that Mr. Cejunior wasn't the first individual in the history of daisho to try the idea out.

I don't know that this is along the same lines as square tires - the upside down kanji might be a bit odd but the work as a whole seems to function in both the sense as a part of the sword as a whole, and seems to convey something about the personality of its owner. Maybe a bit eccentric, but seriously, swords are kind of eccentric at this stage of human civilization.

*Understood on the aikuchi mounting, merely provided as an example of variations on mounting conventions

[Giovanni R.]

Originally Posted by Glen C.

Somehow I don't see the need to present resumes and cultural exactitude in critique of such a small example of one's collaboration as an artist.

Interesting, as I don't see the need to QUESTION one's choice to present cultural exactitude in critique of anything on this forum. Mr. Hallam's experience in this field is well respected and as such should be welcomed here without the need to question his contributions, particularly by those who may or may not have the capacity to understand his points in the first place.

[Giovanni R.]

Originally Posted by Ford Hallam

oops, apologies if I've over stepped the bounds of accepted discussion here. I had assumed this forum was concerned with a certain degree of historical accuracy and respect for the integrity of the subject we study and enjoy. My question in this case seems to have, instead, provoked a very defensive response from members who evidently know very little about the issue I queried. My intention was merely to explore the rationale behind turning this long standing convention upside down.

I hope, never the less, I've at least managed to add a little with regard to the classical understanding of tsuba but now that I have a better idea as to how serious academic discussion is regarded here I'll take my leave.

Ford

I just have to say that it really is a shame what this forum has slowly become. I have been a member here for many years and in that time I have seen it grow to impressive status only to be followed by a slow decline to what it is today. Many well respected craftsmen have not contributed here for some time, due in most part to what you have experienced in this thread. I remember when Rick Barrett and Anthony DiCristofano tried to contribute to a discussion about tamahagane. What a circus that turned out to be. Seems this forum has become more about what members CAN'T do and talk about rather than what they can.

Back to the tsuba though. I for one don't find anything about it to be spectacular. I do find it ironic however that so much effort was put into recognizing symbolism only to ignore a very basic construction form. On the other hand, often times things like this happen only to be corrected later on before the design is finalized. Perhaps in the final proof this mistake would have been remedied.

Long story short, your points are well taken and I for one glad you took the time to give your input. It is a shame that sadly, judging from your last post, you will become a ghost in this forum like so many before you. The only solace I find in this situation is knowing another forum where you and other respected craftsmen like yourself post on a regular basis.

[Aaron Justice]

Originally Posted by Ford Hallam

I had assumed this forum was concerned with a certain degree of historical accuracy and respect for the integrity of the subject we study and enjoy... pretty much everything I've read and seen from Mr Cejunior leads me to feel he also is not particularly well qualified in this field either.

Yes, this forum is concerned with historical accuracy. It is also a forum that on many occasions has encouraged individual expression, right or wrong is more of an opinion than stated fact when it comes to personal expression.

I created a thread a while ago when I became concerned about the number of people who would trash or mock designs people came up with for their swords. Many were impractical (jewels embedded in the blade), some were quite functional, though outside the the historical realm (a viking basket hilt). The negative criticism were always along the lines of "It simply was never done, so you shouldn't have it done." Several sword smiths chimed in, thanking me for the thread and that it brought up valid points about staying purely within tradition for traditions sake. Until a client had something that was completely unreasonable, or in some cases tried to force the smith to do something traditional that might have been inferior to modern construction methods, they didn't see any huge reason to refuse.

When one looks at the idea of tradition, one must not forget the upbringing of an individual. Yoshindo Yoshihara would be expected to forge blades of a completely traditional nature. Howard Clark however is known for modern L6 alloys and other "super steels". The former comes from a society where tradition is heavily ingrained. The later did not grow up in the same society, and has more room to experiment freely if he chose.

The idea that if you have an interest in Japanese weaponry or culture that you must follow strictly every rule, guideline, and precedent set before you is a fine personal quality if you choose to follow it. Not everyone shares in that opinion and aspect, and more or less belittling people for not sharing in it is usually not a good way to convince people of your viewpoint either.

Especially when it comes to the idea of free expression and what we view today as a blend of utility and art. What some people may find completely tasteless and historically devoid, others may like quite a bit. As to Antonio Cejunior, many of his designs I do not care for much. However, I have seen many traditional Japanese designs I cared for even less. Cloisonné tsuba for example, I have yet to see ANY design I have ever liked even moderately. That does not mean I will chose to belittle anyone who does like it. If given a choice to put non traditional fittings on a katana, be it a nihonto or modern made masterpiece, or put cloisonné style fittings on it simply to be traditional, I would chose the non traditional fittings simply because they go so far against my tastes I would never want to own one. Some people hate horimono, no matter how well done, on any blade, even small horimono like ken designs.

To each his own in my opinion. I don't see the need for starting a bitter discussion over a topic like this.