Sword rattling in saya

[Jesse B]

I just purchased a PPK from 888knivesrus (see post on beginners forum). While I love it to death, there is one problem: The sword rattles in its saya. The habaki fits pretty tightly, but the tip rattles when I walk with it. Is this a major problem, or just an annoyance? Is there anything I can do short of getting a new saya?

[Paul Smith]

Hi Jesse,
You have two choices on dealing with this annoyance. Make a new saya, or return it and hope for a better one.
What is happening is that the inside of the saya curves a little bit more than the blade does. This leaves the end of the blade basically hanging in the air. Therefore, when you move it will move around inside the saya making noise when it contacts the sides. It won't hurt anything, but can be very annoying. It is the result of the steps that they have to take to produce an inexpensive sword. The saya are mass produced to the same rough spec, but the blades will all be just a bit different. If you end up with one that didn't curve as much as expected (and you did), then you end up with a rattling saya.

I would suggest talking with the folks you bought it from and negotiating an exchange.

[Jesse B]

Originally posted by Paul Smith
Hi Jesse,
You have two choices on dealing with this annoyance. Make a new saya, or return it and hope for a better one.
What is happening is that the inside of the saya curves a little bit more than the blade does. This leaves the end of the blade basically hanging in the air. Therefore, when you move it will move around inside the saya making noise when it contacts the sides. It won't hurt anything, but can be very annoying. It is the result of the steps that they have to take to produce an inexpensive sword. The saya are mass produced to the same rough spec, but the blades will all be just a bit different. If you end up with one that didn't curve as much as expected (and you did), then you end up with a rattling saya.

I would suggest talking with the folks you bought it from and negotiating an exchange.

A user on the beginners forum suggested stuffing a cotton ball into the bottom of the saya in order to secure the blade. This might work, but I don't want to do anything that might mess up the sword some time down the road.

I will be contacting the people at 888knivesrus to see about an exchange. Thanks for the help.

[Keith Larman]

The PK's, PPK's, KC's, etc. *all* rattle horribly. They all draw and sheath sloppily to me.

I don't want to sound elitist, but having no rattle in a saya is something craftsmen work very hard on in creating saya for a particular blade. And some shapes make it almost impossible. Sure, it can be minimized and the very best can make a saya where it doesn't happen no matter the blade shape. Since all these blades are hand forged, no "generic" saya is going to fit perfectly. So they are going to rattle, some maybe more than others, but they're likely all going to rattle.

Or to put it another way, if you get one that doesn't rattle, you were very lucky. I seriously doubt anyone should expect these blades to not rattle.

All the talk here on the forums on Japanese style blades seems now to concentrate on the practical and KC lines. That's fine. They're fine given what they are and the price they charge. But these are *very* low end swords with cut corners, sloppy fit, and knocked out parts. I am of mixed feelings about them. On the one hand they offer a lot of bang for the buck for those without a lot of cash to spend. But on the other they are lowering the bar so *very* low that sometimes reading posts here on the forum is like listening to people rave about the fine cuisine at McDonald's.

I know everyone can't afford the best. Or even middle level. Or even mid level production stuff. But I really wish those so enthusiastic about the *really* low cost stuff could temper their enthusiasm with a little more reality. These low end swords have a *lot* of limitations. A lot of cut corners. And within areas like appreciation or traditional sword training most consider them woefully inadequate.

There is a very wide range out there. If a finished fully mounted katana costs under a couple thousand dollars, well, saya rattle, less than optimal finish, less than perfect wraps, less than great fit, lower grade parts, wood, etc. are all to be expected. You get what you pay for.

The vendor is being *extremely* nice if they allow an exchange because of rattle like that on a low end sword.

[A. Bakken]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
[...] sometimes reading posts here on the forum is like listening to people rave about the fine cuisine at McDonald's.

I gotta hand it to you Keith, you do have a wicked way with words!

[Keith Larman]

And *DO NOT* stuff anything into your saya, cotton ball or otherwise.

[Keith Larman]

Originally posted by A. Bakken


I gotta hand it to you Keith, you do have a wicked way with words!

Hey, I had a quick dinner with my daughter last night at McDonald's. She really likes the McNuggets (what the *hell* are those things, anyway). The grilled chicken sandwich wasn't bad at all for my tastes. And their fries are great.

Just keep it in perspective...

[Jesse B]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
The PK's, PPK's, KC's, etc. *all* rattle horribly. They all draw and sheath sloppily to me.

I don't want to sound elitist, but having no rattle in a saya is something craftsmen work very hard on in creating saya for a particular blade. And some shapes make it almost impossible. Sure, it can be minimized and the very best can make a saya where it doesn't happen no matter the blade shape. Since all these blades are hand forged, no "generic" saya is going to fit perfectly. So they are going to rattle, some maybe more than others, but they're likely all going to rattle.

Or to put it another way, if you get one that doesn't rattle, you were very lucky. I seriously doubt anyone should expect these blades to not rattle.

All the talk here on the forums on Japanese style blades seems now to concentrate on the practical and KC lines. That's fine. They're fine given what they are and the price they charge. But these are *very* low end swords with cut corners, sloppy fit, and knocked out parts. I am of mixed feelings about them. On the one hand they offer a lot of bang for the buck for those without a lot of cash to spend. But on the other they are lowering the bar so *very* low that sometimes reading posts here on the forum is like listening to people rave about the fine cuisine at McDonald's.

I know everyone can't afford the best. Or even middle level. Or even mid level production stuff. But I really wish those so enthusiastic about the *really* low cost stuff could temper their enthusiasm with a little more reality. These low end swords have a *lot* of limitations. A lot of cut corners. And within areas like appreciation or traditional sword training most consider them woefully inadequate.

There is a very wide range out there. If a finished fully mounted katana costs under a couple thousand dollars, well, saya rattle, less than optimal finish, less than perfect wraps, less than great fit, lower grade parts, wood, etc. are all to be expected. You get what you pay for.

The vendor is being *extremely* nice if they allow an exchange because of rattle like that on a low end sword.

I appreciate the feedback on this, and the perspective you have given in this matter. I guess I was lucky with the PK that didn't rattle at all.

Just keep in mind that some of us can only afford McDonalds. We only have experience with the low end of the spectrum. I'm glad we have people like you around who are willing to take the time to share some of your experience with us. Thanks.

Nothing will go into the saya. I'll live with the rattle.

[Dave Booth]

Originally posted by Jesse B


I appreciate the feedback on this, and the perspective you have given in this matter. I guess I was lucky with the PK that didn't rattle at all.

Just keep in mind that some of us can only afford McDonalds. We only have experience with the low end of the spectrum. I'm glad we have people like you around who are willing to take the time to share some of your experience with us. Thanks.

Nothing will go into the saya. I'll live with the rattle.

Well, you dont have to live with it.... A badly fitted saya may scuff up and damage a blade, may have tight spots that can promote rusting or may be unsafe to use because of a poorly-fitting habaki etc etc etc... So, if you're going to start making saya what better blade to do your first attempts on than a PPK? Grab some poplar and break out your woodworking tools (or persuade somebody to let you borrow theirs). I've made 1 saya for my PPK that ended up as firewood - I made too many mistakes before it even got to the stage of finishing so I didnt waste the horn and lacquer. I'm working on a second even though the one it came with is a reasonable fit. I just want to make all my worst mistakes before I start on the one I really want to make for my other blade which deserves a much nicer saya than the one its got.

Living with a rattle need only be a short-term solution as you find the time to work on a replacement yourself. Having a usable saya so that you can still train with the sword just takes the urgency out of the project.

Dave

[Jesse B]

Originally posted by Dave Booth


Well, you dont have to live with it.... A badly fitted saya may scuff up and damage a blade, may have tight spots that can promote rusting or may be unsafe to use because of a poorly-fitting habaki etc etc etc... So, if you're going to start making saya what better blade to do your first attempts on than a PPK? Grab some poplar and break out your woodworking tools (or persuade somebody to let you borrow theirs). I've made 1 saya for my PPK that ended up as firewood - I made too many mistakes before it even got to the stage of finishing so I didnt waste the horn and lacquer. I'm working on a second even though the one it came with is a reasonable fit. I just want to make all my worst mistakes before I start on the one I really want to make for my other blade which deserves a much nicer saya than the one its got.

Living with a rattle need only be a short-term solution as you find the time to work on a replacement yourself. Having a usable saya so that you can still train with the sword just takes the urgency out of the project.

Dave

I think I will give it a shot. Any tips for the novice woodworker?

[Paul Smith]

Before starting, read through John Tirado's excellent site. He is a professional sayashi and has lots of good information to give you an idea of what you want to be doing. Here's a link ... http://www.sayashi.com/

Good luck!

[Dave Booth]

Originally posted by Jesse B


I think I will give it a shot. Any tips for the novice woodworker?

Hmm, well I'm going to take the "novice" statement literally, just in case, so my apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.... Aside from the classic "measure twice, cut once" cliche, theres really just this and I'm talking mostly about hand tools here, because I'm guessing you might not have access to the easy "cheats" like routers and table saws - Also, most power tools produce too coarse a result for what you want on a saya anyway. The only power tool I've used to date is to go borrow a friends bandsaw for cutting the blanks, but I could just as easily have used my old handsaws too.

The most important woodwork skill is care of the tools. More woodwork projects have been ruined by allowing tools to get dull than by anything else. If my chisels dont shave the hairs off the back of my hand with a light touch, they need sharpening. Same for plane blades. Take them up and down a strop at regular intervals when you're working too. If it becomes harder to cut you left it too long and may need to completely resharpen. (Dull tools tend to bind, jump and slip more as well - whilst still with enough edge to quite happily make as big a hole in you as a small sword would) Theres plenty of documentation around to show you the right way to put an edge on any tool if you cant find somebody who knows how to show you the way my Dad & Grandad did for me

Never be tempted to make the work go faster by pushing the limits of how much wood you can remove in one go. Your edges dont last as long and you tend to slip worse or break things, which truly sucks if its late in the project and you have to start again.

Finally, particularly for saya theres one important point. Never use any kind of abrasive tool when cutting or finishing the channel the blade fits in. (files are OK because they actually cut rather than grind) Sanding of any kind or use of an abrasive wheel will leave its dust in the fibres of the wood, waiting to scratch the hell out of your blade when the saya is in use. You cannot ever get it all out, so dont let it get in there in the first place.

Good luck with it.

Dave.

[Jesse B]

Originally posted by Dave Booth


Hmm, well I'm going to take the "novice" statement literally, just in case, so my apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know....
Good luck with it.

Dave.

I really am a novice at this, so thanks for the advice (I will have help here, so hopefully I won't ruin *too much* wood!).

I appreciate the help Paul and Dave, and I'll let you know how this turns out.

[Keith Larman]

Originally posted by Jesse B


I appreciate the feedback on this, and the perspective you have given in this matter. I guess I was lucky with the PK that didn't rattle at all.

Just keep in mind that some of us can only afford McDonalds. We only have experience with the low end of the spectrum. I'm glad we have people like you around who are willing to take the time to share some of your experience with us. Thanks.

Nothing will go into the saya. I'll live with the rattle.

Hey, like I said, there is a range of stuff out there and everything has its place. Heck, most people don't realize that I don't own a custom sword myself (apart from things I'm working on to sell eventually). Since I started doing this stuff as a full time endeavor I simply can't afford one. Even with me doing my own polish, mounting, etc. I hope to keep one of the swords I have from Howard someday, and I have one that I might if I ever get the time to finish it, but for now I use an iaito and bokken. If I finish something I usually need to sell it to pay the bills. Pampers, mortgage, insurance, taxes... It all adds up. So I fully understand the economic issue.

And I agree with Dave that a very positive thing would be to use this as an excuse to learn to make your own saya. Take a look at Kapp and Yoshindo' book "The Craft of the Japanese Sword". I have a link to it on my website in the books section. It has a full chapter on a craftsman making a shirasaya. Heck, if you e-mail me your address I probably have an extra horn koiguchi and kurikata blank in my toolbox I could send ya.

Depending on where you are look for poplar is a good wood for doing this. You can also use basswood. Both are usually readily available in craft stores. I prefer alder myself but its hard to find if you're not on the west coast of the US. Don't fall into the trap of using something exotic or hard. The goal in a saya is the best fit possible with wood with a low acidity and low sap. Poplar is probably the closest relative to the traditional honoki. Do it with a wood easy to carve and shape and work on getting the fit as close to perfect as possible.

And yes, Mr. Tirado does some of the nicest saya around. His website is a very good resource.

Give it a try.

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
The PK's, PPK's, KC's, etc. *all* rattle horribly. They all draw and sheath sloppily to me.

this slop is a very bad thing in my eyes.. how hard would it be for them to make at least the ji fit tight?

my shinto wakizashi is numbered on all the parts. it snot liek they don't have a way of making sure the parts meet back up further down the line...

i actually was able to get enough leverage to crack the mune side of my pk saya the other day. i ended up fixing it by glung it with gorilla glue, carving it a but, then wrapping it with same. the saya neededtobe repainted anyways.




and my spacebar is broken again.... ugh...

[Keith Larman]

Hmmm, its not the ji that needs to "fit" tight. The only surfaces in contact with the blade should be the mune and the area around the habaki. The blade "rides" the mune and that combined with a solid fit at the habaki should basically keep the blade securely fit. It gets tough depending on sori to keep the blade "tight" in the saya, but having the saya contact *more* of the surfaces of the blade is not the answer. The beauty of a well made saya is that there is minimal contact all while the blade is super secure.

Personally I think they have a good compromise. Some rattle more than others. But hell, I charge more for a saya than a couple entire PK's...

There are reasons they're inexpensive. For a couple hundred you guys are getting a hand forged blade, a polish of a sort, tsuka, wrap, saya, paint, fittings...

It sometimes makes me wonder if I've made a serious mistake trying to make a living at this stuff...

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
Hmmm, its not the ji that needs to "fit" tight. The only surfaces in contact with the blade should be the mune and the area around the habaki. The blade "rides" the mune and that combined with a solid fit at the habaki should basically keep the blade securely fit. It gets tough depending on sori to keep the blade "tight" in the saya, but having the saya contact *more* of the surfaces of the blade is not the answer. The beauty of a well made saya is that there is minimal contact all while the blade is super secure.

Personally I think they have a good compromise. Some rattle more than others. But hell, I charge more for a saya than a couple entire PK's...

There are reasons they're inexpensive. For a couple hundred you guys are getting a hand forged blade, a polish of a sort, tsuka, wrap, saya, paint, fittings...

It sometimes makes me wonder if I've made a serious mistake trying to make a living at this stuff...

no mistake. if it was, it was a good one

[Jason Anstey]

Hi there. Believe this or not?

I have been told by Nagyama Sensei from Japan who not only is 8th Dan Jodo and 7th Dan Iaido but is also a restorer of Nihonto.

He said that they stuff a small amount of Horse hair down the saya, problem fixed.

Now I must add that he might have been referring to Iaito??

Cheers

Jason

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
Hmmm, its not the ji that needs to "fit" tight. The only surfaces in contact with the blade should be the mune and the area around the habaki. The blade "rides" the mune and that combined with a solid fit at the habaki should basically keep the blade securely fit. It gets tough depending on sori to keep the blade "tight" in the saya, but having the saya contact *more* of the surfaces of the blade is not the answer. The beauty of a well made saya is that there is minimal contact all while the blade is super secure.

Personally I think they have a good compromise. Some rattle more than others. But hell, I charge more for a saya than a couple entire PK's...

There are reasons they're inexpensive. For a couple hundred you guys are getting a hand forged blade, a polish of a sort, tsuka, wrap, saya, paint, fittings...

It sometimes makes me wonder if I've made a serious mistake trying to make a living at this stuff...

keith, one other quick question. whats the typical life of a saya? like, how often do you hear of a cracked saya? i'm trying to figure out if i botched the draw, or if it was bound to happen after two years of use... it sounded like a "wet" crack.... wonder if something got in it....

[Keith Larman]

The problem with the "stuff in the saya" thing is that we're not talking about aluminum alloy blades. Oil gathers inside of saya, sometimes to a detriment in practitioners' saya. If you have something literally "holding" the tip of the blade every time you shove the blade into the saya you're shoving whatever dust, dirt and grime might be on the tip. And if you handle your sword, cut, whatever and don't get absolutely *everything* off the blade (right down to microscopic dust) it will end up in that "stuff" in the saya. That mixed with oil is essentially like creating a rubbing compound inside your saya.

One reason for burnishing the mune and shinogi-ji of Japanese style swords is to both ensure a smooth movement in the saya but also to "close off" the grain of the steel in those areas. That way "stuff" that could be on the saya walls won't do significant damage to the steel. But the more polished and "opened" areas of the ji surface, ha and kissaki are not so protected. Hence the sayashi carves the inner channel not to touch those areas.

And that is also why the sayashi will usually carve a small "recepticle" into the end of the saya for extra oil to gather rather than saturating the inside of the saya. I've seen no shortage of overoiled blades where they no longer seat in the saya because the wood expanded. And usually the tips are pretty well scratched up at the same time for obvious reasons.

I imagine it makes little difference with a mogito. But with a carbon steel Japanese style blade the best cure for rattle is a better constructed saya...

[Keith Larman]

Saya are expendable supplies just like tsuka. How long they last depends on how well they're made, the skill of the user, and so forth. There is no hard and fast rule. But just be prepared to replace them every now and then. They do wear out unless your form is very good.

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Keith Larman
Saya are expendable supplies just like tsuka. How long they last depends on how well they're made, the skill of the user, and so forth. There is no hard and fast rule. But just be prepared to replace them every now and then. They do wear out unless your form is very good.

thanks.

actually...

heres the saya, well, i ended up polishign the heads off the same, i'll have to take a new picture eventually.. the same is nice and tight too.... think it will last for the time being?

i guess its a good reason to learn to make a saya finally...

use your imagination, it looks much better now, really.. tho the saya has scratches on it from my dad sanding the polyurethane... i should have just clearcoated it...

[Jason Anstey]

Makes sense to me Keith, am sure the "stuff" fix is really only appropriate for a low end blade or alloy blade - probably not even then??

In regards to the saya, You don't put a Ferrari body on Ford chassis.

Cheers

Jason

PS. Remark is in general and I am in no way bagging the katana in question.

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Jason Anstey
Makes sense to me Keith, am sure the "stuff" fix is really only appropriate for a low end blade or alloy blade - probably not even then??

In regards to the saya, You don't put a Ferrari body on Ford chassis.

Cheers

Jason

PS. Remark is in general and I am in no way bagging the katana in question.

yes, but you don't leave the chassis bare, do you?

[Jason Anstey]

Well put.