Use of wasters in competition

[Brian R. Price]

Everyone,

I'm working on the rules for the armoured pas d'armes for the Schola St. George Livermore tournament, and a fundamental question has arisen:

Are wasters safe for full-contact armoured fighting?
(given that they splinter)

If they should be allowed, what should consistitute a good thrust using a waster?

I have my own opinions on this, but want to troll here to see what the community thinks--

[Rob Lovett]

Brian what is the difference between


should be used, without thrusting

and

should be used, but not with thrusting



Rob

[Brian R. Price]

I'll have to have Greg fix this one!

For now, make the first one *with* thrusting.

Should be allowed, with thrusting
Should be allowed, without thrusting

Brian

[Gregory Mele]

Originally posted by Brian R. Price
I'll have to have Greg fix this one!

For now, make the first one *with* thrusting.

Should be allowed, with thrusting
Should be allowed, without thrusting

Brian

Done!

Greg

[Brian R. Price]

Originally posted by Gregory Mele


Done!

Greg

Thanks!

[Matt Easton]

How can you win an armoured fight without thrusting? You may as well use only your hands in my opinion. Or even better, a dagger... Hmm, but if you can't thrust with it.... !

[Brian R. Price]

Simple--this is a tournament bout. By being struck with stout blows--as they did in tournaments--or by losing the requisite number of points. These are *medieval* concepts; they did not fight in tournaments to kill each other.

And there are rules against thrusing and foyning in extant regulations, although their meaning is far from clear.

We do generally allow thrusting with waster daggers--they don't as a rule splinter. The point is that in last year's tournament, three wasters splintered. What if someone was to make a mistake with one of those?

[Matt Easton]

Ah ok! - That's cool! Why not try whalebone? I've got this friend in Norway with a boat....

[Brian R. Price]

Originally posted by Matt Easton
Ah ok! - That's cool! Why not try whalebone? I've got this friend in Norway with a boat....

"Baleen" would be really cool--if we could get some. It may be illegal here, though....

There has been a lot of discussion on this point over on the Tournament Company list; Baleen may refer to the whippy cartilage pieces in the whale's mouth, but we really don't know.

There are records to ash being used, too; and that's okay--but there is still the splintering problem. Hence, many behourd-based combat societies rules regarding taping of the weapon. We all find this aesthetically annoying, but outweighed by the safety gain. Perhaps within the context of a more restricted tournament the risk might be acceptable...

The problem is, with competition comes a bit less control--and we just don't want to run someone through with a bloody waster or baton...

Thoughts?

[Juan Bertucci]

Originally posted by Brian R. Price
Simple--this is a tournament bout. By being struck with stout blows--as they did in tournaments--or by losing the requisite number of points. These are *medieval* concepts; they did not fight in tournaments to kill each other.

And there are rules against thrusing and foyning in extant regulations, although their meaning is far from clear.

We do generally allow thrusting with waster daggers--they don't as a rule splinter. The point is that in last year's tournament, three wasters splintered. What if someone was to make a mistake with one of those?

Hey Brian,

Don't forget at earlier tournaments, there were fights "a outrance" - death matches, as opposite from "a plaisance".

A question: why a guy that splinters his waster shoul be allowed to participate? isn't it a result of bad technique?

[John M.]

Originally posted by Brian R. Price


"Baleen" would be really cool--if we could get some. It may be illegal here, though....

There has been a lot of discussion on this point over on the Tournament Company list; Baleen may refer to the whippy cartilage pieces in the whale's mouth, but we really don't know.

There are records to ash being used, too; and that's okay--but there is still the splintering problem. Hence, many behourd-based combat societies rules regarding taping of the weapon. We all find this aesthetically annoying, but outweighed by the safety gain. Perhaps within the context of a more restricted tournament the risk might be acceptable...

The problem is, with competition comes a bit less control--and we just don't want to run someone through with a bloody waster or baton...

Thoughts?

At the risk of sounding SCA ish, has anyone considered taping their wasters? Not aesthetic certainly but given the alternative of splintering... Don;t beat me up if this idea is silly

[Brian R. Price]

Originally posted by Juan Bertucci


Hey Brian,

Don't forget at earlier tournaments, there were fights "a outrance" - death matches, as opposite from "a plaisance".

A question: why a guy that splinters his waster shoul be allowed to participate? isn't it a result of bad technique?

Couple of things.

There were combats a outrance in all periods, but the intent of these combats was possibly much different than those used in a pas d'armes.

I don't think we have a way--yet--to conduct safe fights a outrance; though I'd be very open to listening to ideas on this front.

With regard to splintered wasters, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with the combatant; knots can break, the wood can be dry, or it can vibrate and cause cracking that way. By the same token, we might remove a combatant whose helmet fails, but I'm not sure that does anything for the spirit of the day; nor does it solve the problem of what happens when the *do* break...

Personally, I'm undecided on the point.

[Juan Bertucci]

Originally posted by Brian R. Price


Couple of things.

There were combats a outrance in all periods, but the intent of these combats was possibly much different than those used in a pas d'armes.

I don't think we have a way--yet--to conduct safe fights a outrance; though I'd be very open to listening to ideas on this front.

With regard to splintered wasters, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with the combatant; knots can break, the wood can be dry, or it can vibrate and cause cracking that way. By the same token, we might remove a combatant whose helmet fails, but I'm not sure that does anything for the spirit of the day; nor does it solve the problem of what happens when the *do* break...

Personally, I'm undecided on the point.

Hey, Brian!

I think that there is no safe way to fight "A outrance" given its nature...

I read that these guys *had* lethal engagements just for the fun of it! (read Oakeshott's "Arch. of Weapons, pages 195-196) don't forget they didn't regard life as we do today.

If I'd allow wasters in competition, I'd check them for flaws in construction, like knots, chipping, &c. But there's always a risk in all agonistic sports that must be accepted! I remember the story of this olympic fencer killed with an epèe by accident, it broke and the sharp point pierced through the mask... So, what are you going to do? There's a point where you must accept a certain level of risk. Just an opinion.

And yes, if the waster has no flaws, bad technique explains 99% of breakages and splintering.

[Brian R. Price]

Originally posted by Juan Bertucci




And yes, if the waster has no flaws, bad technique explains 99% of breakages and splintering.

Juan,

Greetings! I don't concur that members of the medieval chivalry fought a outrance just for the heck of it. I do think such contests were conducted--especially during times like the Hundred Year's War--along national lines (for the later Middle Ages, anyway).

The earlier tournament engagements could and sometimes did happen (as did the tournament at Chalons in 1278, the "Little Battle" of Chalons). Is there a need to recreate this? Not sure I see the need...

With respect to waster breakage, I'd need support for a "99%" assertion. What sort of bad technique are you referring to?

[Brian R. Price]

Here's a fly in the ointment:

Although we have records of batons being used in tournament, we have *no* contemporary evidence of wasters being used.

We *do* have records of ash, willow and "baleen", but we have no accurate description of how these might have been constructed. The closest I've found is the famous inventory of Edward I's Windsor tournament (cited in Barker & Barber) where the weapons were covered in "parchment" and silver-leafed.

Since our objective is to interject more authentic technique into the medieval tournament formats, I'm adding this perspective to incite discussion about its appropriateness.

Good discussion all!

[Bill Duncan]

Since I plan on doing this myself this question has come up in my mind as well.
Some thoughts.
As posted on the AEMMA site wasters are allowed and it talks of how a reff (sorry don’t have the real name handy.) should watch for just such a problem and should call a halt to the match.
This makes a hell of a lot of since to me since all the period paintings I have seen have a baton wielder handy to stop the combatants as soon as things get dangerous or out of hand with the fellas.
Blunts are the main weapon that they prefer but I guess some may get a shade nervous using these but if properly armored what the heck? Keep the hot heads out and the purpose of MARTIAL ARTS clearly defined you should have a good tourney.
Bill Duncan

[Einar Drønnesund]

If aestethics is the only reason you dont like taping your weapons, I really dont see the big problem. Tape'em.

Matt, I can fix ye up with some whalebone if ya like. i I know plenty of evil Norwegian whalers. We kill'em for fun, you know. And maybe a couple of baby seal eyes to decorate your sword?

Einar

[Brian R. Price]

Originally posted by Bill Duncan
Since I plan on doing this myself this question has come up in my mind as well.
Some thoughts.
As posted on the AEMMA site wasters are allowed and it talks of how a reff (sorry don’t have the real name handy.) should watch for just such a problem and should call a halt to the match.
This makes a hell of a lot of since to me since all the period paintings I have seen have a baton wielder handy to stop the combatants as soon as things get dangerous or out of hand with the fellas.
Blunts are the main weapon that they prefer but I guess some may get a shade nervous using these but if properly armored what the heck? Keep the hot heads out and the purpose of MARTIAL ARTS clearly defined you should have a good tourney.
Bill Duncan

Bill.

Thanks for the comments. I should note that we've run in excess of twenty-five pas or pas-style tourneys, so this is very familiar ground.

The word you're looking for is "judge" or, in the parlance of Geoffrey de Charny's DEMANDS POUR LA JOUTE, LE TOURNOIS ET LE GUERRE, "Diseurs". We have them, too, sometimes calling them diseurs, other times referring to them as marshals.

The fundamental problem is one of insurance. In the US, particularly here in California, the excessively litigious nature of our society has created fundamental difficulties for the conduct of activities that possess even a modicum of danger. If a combatant were to be run through with a splintered waster, his estate could (and likely would) sue for a wrongful death. Very few insurance companies will touch an event like this if they believe that there is any danger. My real concern is to defend not just ourselves as sponsors, the combatants and gallery; but the community as a whole.

Mind you, I *like* the wasters--even in tournament--although the do seem to break with alarming regularity, not just here, but in other places I've been. Perhaps they *should* be taped with strapping tape or some such...

Again, good discussion all!

[Daniel Davis]

What type of armour is the norm? I would assume that wasters would break more easily on some type of plate. My sparring is much lower intensity and with friends in helmets, gloves, and kneepads. THe only time I have ever had a sword break was when I made a very bad parry with a hickory cut and thrust sword against a baskethilt, knowing that I had made the C&T a good deal to thin. I am not trying to compare expieriences by any means, for I know that what most people here do is much more intense and with a lot more armor. But using all oaken wasters, I have never had a problem. How many and under what circumstances do they usually break?

[Gregory Mele]

Originally posted by Daniel Davis
What type of armour is the norm? I would assume that wasters would break more easily on some type of plate. My sparring is much lower intensity and with friends in helmets, gloves, and kneepads. THe only time I have ever had a sword break was when I made a very bad parry with a hickory cut and thrust sword against a baskethilt, knowing that I had made the C&T a good deal to thin. I am not trying to compare expieriences by any means, for I know that what most people here do is much more intense and with a lot more armor. But using all oaken wasters, I have never had a problem. How many and under what circumstances do they usually break?

Daniel,

We are specifically talking about an armoured tournament (late 13th - 16th century harness), and with close to full-contact blows. As you surmise, the wasters really behave poorly against plate armour.

Brian, et al -

As to wrapping them...how about some sort of thin leather or canvas cover? I don't see where it would be any heavier than the tape, less hideous, and need less continuous repair. (Although, at some point, you'd need to strip it completely and redo it)

Greg

[Ashley Bishop]

What is argument *against* tape? It is certainly the easiest.

If its purely asthetics, there are many matte finish cloth-backed tapes (gaffer's tape) available is a veritable rainbow of colors including the always acceptable black, grey or brown.

As for a canvas or leather covering, I would have two questions:
Cost-wise, how would compare to tape?
How do you attach it? Any attachment I can think of would either not be *secure* (ie a sewn "bag" covering) or would not provide any asthetic benefit over tape (ie glued on).

Just my 2 pence.
ashley

[Gregory Mele]

Originally posted by Ashley Bishop
What is argument *against* tape? It is certainly the easiest.

If its purely asthetics, there are many matte finish cloth-backed tapes (gaffer's tape) available is a veritable rainbow of colors including the always acceptable black, grey or brown.

As for a canvas or leather covering, I would have two questions:
Cost-wise, how would compare to tape?
How do you attach it? Any attachment I can think of would either not be *secure* (ie a sewn "bag" covering) or would not provide any asthetic benefit over tape (ie glued on).

Just my 2 pence.
ashley

Besides aesthetics, the stuff simply shreds to pieces each time you use it, leaving your weapons ratty, and your stuff covered in goo.

As to the cover - you could either lace it to the cross, or use a bit of - tape - to secure it at the forte.

Greg

[James Nordstrom]

How about some polyurethane wasters. Lengths of round and oval poly can be had at Tap Plastics (a local/regional supplier). For extended use urethane is not the way to go as it delivers shock rather efficiently into the hands, but for use every now and then it should not be a problem. And as I have used a couple of these, I can say that you can basically hammer away at anything with them with no worry of splintering. And, who knows, they might just look like whale bone.

[Bill Duncan]

Originally posted by Brian R. Price


Bill.

Thanks for the comments. I should note that we've run in excess of twenty-five pas or pas-style tourneys, so this is very familiar ground.

The word you're looking for is "judge" or, in the parlance of Geoffrey de Charny's DEMANDS POUR LA JOUTE, LE TOURNOIS ET LE GUERRE, "Diseurs". We have them, too, sometimes calling them diseurs, other times referring to them as marshals.

The fundamental problem is one of insurance. In the US, particularly here in California, the excessively litigious nature of our society has created fundamental difficulties for the conduct of activities that possess even a modicum of danger. If a combatant were to be run through with a splintered waster, his estate could (and likely would) sue for a wrongful death. Very few insurance companies will touch an event like this if they believe that there is any danger. My real concern is to defend not just ourselves as sponsors, the combatants and gallery; but the community as a whole.

Mind you, I *like* the wasters--even in tournament--although the do seem to break with alarming regularity, not just here, but in other places I've been. Perhaps they *should* be taped with strapping tape or some such...

Again, good discussion all!

Having lived in the lawsuit capitol of the world once in a while I can sympathies with you on this fact.
Here we ask people to sigh a release form for rodeos and this may work for what you have.
Talk with a land shark (lawyer) and see what he says.
Now this may sound absolutely ridiculous but as far as safety for the spectators goes have you thought of a chain link cage? Not period of course but what the heck if the land sharks like it all the better.
Bill Duncan

[John M.]

Originally posted by Gregory Mele


Daniel,

We are specifically talking about an armoured tournament (late 13th - 16th century harness), and with close to full-contact blows. As you surmise, the wasters really behave poorly against plate armour.

Brian, et al -

As to wrapping them...how about some sort of thin leather or canvas cover? I don't see where it would be any heavier than the tape, less hideous, and need less continuous repair. (Although, at some point, you'd need to strip it completely and redo it)

Greg

The same idea for leather or canvas occurred to me. The only problem w/leather , as far as I can tell, would be the cost.. Especially if, as somebody said, wasters take a heavy beat'n' against armor.

Perhaps some type of canvas or tough nylon wrap w/o the adhesive? Maybe stitched on? At the risk of sounding vulgar, there's a built-in brand name for this sort of thing: Trojan Bastard Sized

I agree, tape per se looks like sh!te after a couple of passes and it gums up the weapon.