Point of Balance and cutting

[Leighton T.]

Sorry to have to do this, but the search enging proved almost useless. POB doesn't show up and P.O.B don't work. Point and balance also doesn't dredge up what I am looking for.

My understanding of katanas is that the POB is 5"-7" from the tsuba. Now that that is out of the way, here is my question. Cetaris parabis, will a sword whose POB is 5" from the guard cut better than a sword whose POB is 7" from the tsuba?

I think that the 7" sword will cut better because of physics and something called momentum. Correct me if I am wrong.

Now, I also heard from someone that for a beginner a closer POB facilitates cutting.
I think thats not true as I remember hearing that a farther POB is better for a beginner because the sword whose POB is further will be more forgiving to bad form. I also think that no matter what, a POB that is further from the tsuba, cetaris parabis, will cut better than a sword whose POB is closer to the tsuba.

My question to you knowledgable people, esp the mods, am I correct in my assumptions? If not, please enlighten me as to the truth.

[A. Bakken]

A very similar question was answered by Keith Larman on Bugei's sword forum recently.

[Leighton T.]

Yes, I read that thread, and it doesn't answer my question, which is why I posted.

[A. Bakken]

OK, then -

Originally posted by Leighton T.
Cetaris parabis, will a sword whose POB is 5" from the guard cut better than a sword whose POB is 7" from the tsuba?

I think that the 7" sword will cut better because of physics and something called momentum.

I assume the latin phrase means "everything else being equal"? Well, it seldom is. The sword, as Keith said in the thread I linked to, is a complex shape, and focusing on one single aspect tends to make one lose hold of the bigger picture. No driver will be able to drive well if the steering wheel does not function properly, but as we all know, there is a whole lot more to a car than just the steering wheel.

[Leighton T.]

Originally posted by A. Bakken
OK, then -



I assume the latin phrase means "everything else being equal"? Well, it seldom is. The sword, as Keith said in the thread I linked to, is a complex shape, and focusing on one single aspect tends to make one lose hold of the bigger picture. No driver will be able to drive well if the steering wheel does not function properly, but as we all know, there is a whole lot more to a car than just the steering wheel.

Ah, so now we come to the point where we discuss the inability of ceteris parabis, all other things being equal. Hmm, I don't have a response to that.

[Leighton T.]

Must clarify last post. It is not sarcastic, just my way of saying, "my bubble has burst and I now realize that there is no simple answer to my simple question."

[Henry . A]

A POB of 7 inches on a 28 inch Nagasa Katana will cut very well.

A POB of 4 inches on a 28 inche Nagasa Katana will also cut but will require more power behind the swing /cut as it dosnt generate as much force as the POB 7 inch

The cut mechanic of the blade change with where the POB placed.


As the POB get closer to the Tsuba you gain mobility and lose cutting force .

To close a POB and the Katana will lose its tracking ability and become more unstable in a cut ,but be very mobile

To far out a POB and you lose blade handling speed/mobility,but gain cutting power and tracking.
Its like puting top spin on the que ball shooting pool,it makes the ball track straight

The placing POB is a trade off of what you desire the blade to do .
There is a balance to meet if you want a blade that handles and cuts well.

This is what I have learned from handling and mounting Live blades /Katana.

Henry. A

[Keith Larman]

As I *carefully* step into the fray...

Realize that different styles do different things. And different focuses can result in different ideas of "correct".

From my experience polishing and mounting blades for lots of folk with different backgrounds...

Like Henry implied, balance doesn't exist in isolation. A blade balanced way far out at the tip that's only 26 inches of nagasa is going to be a dog regardless. A blade balanced very close to the tsuba that is long will be "too light" in the hands as a general statement. The blade *needs* some mass to handle anything more than light target cutting. So long blades with balance close to the hands will tend to have more trouble with anything other than light targets. Of course it gets complicated here, however. If the blade geometry is thin with no niku, well, it can be *very* sharp. So on those soft targets it *can* cut very, very well, but on anything else including larger rolls of soft stuff, well, keep a straightening kit handy. And these sorts don't always balance towards the hands either -- they can be *very* wide from mune to edge hence still have considerable mass.

Some in the JSA's have swords that are *single purpose* swords for lack of a better description. Great for small roll cutting. Usually these are more thin blades with virtually flat ji surfaces. Long razors really. They're not a great choice for things like Dodan, however. That can give you a pretzel in a heartbeat.

Anyway, back to the topic. What is new and different about some of the discussions I've seen lately here and elsewhere (if you can call hem discussions, that is) have been that the swords with balance towards the hands are being described as good cutters. It used to be (as a gross generalization) that the guys into things like iai that emphasized kata and did little tameshigiri wanted light fast blades for the handling aspect. In a way, the emphasis on tameshigiri has grown quite a bit in the years I've been doing this. I used to know quite a few more people who did iai only and only rarely ever "cut". Today, it seems like tameshigiri is finding its way into more and more dojo.

Anyway, yes, guys for whom forms and kata is the emphasis over the years tend to gravitate towards blades more moderate in size, weight, shape, etc. Usually this is because as they improve in form they find they can handle longer blades. And as the blade gets longer, balance tends to move out. And with that increased ability and more solid form comes the ability to handle the blade more confidently as the balance moves out. As one iai instructor once told me, often practice in iai is a question of MM's of precision. Control. One sensei of mine is about 5 foot 8 I suppose and uses a 30" nagasa shinshinto beast of a sword. With amazing control, grace and elegance. I'm 6 feet tall and the sword is much heavier than I'd like for kata. And I can't control it like him. But he can. That's what all those years will do for you.

And on the flip side, the guys more into the "rough and ready" kenjutsu styles (don't start up the debate as to what the differences really are, just in general, the things *other* than iai) tend to start off wanting more tip heavy for cutting. It means more robust blades as they tend to have a greater emphasis on cutting and in general on harder, more robust targets as well right from the start. And without (in general) the emphasis on super precise, well defined form in kata, light and fast is usually less of a concern. You grow into the sword.

Anyway, all that said... I kinda cringe when I see people saying this or that cuts better. Cuts better in what context? Standing facing a big rolled bunch of wet grass? I've got a machete that if I put a better edge on it will outcut a whole lot of swords out there. The thing that bugs me about the discussion is the focus on the "sword's" cutting ability vs. the ability of the *swordsman* to cut with a sword. The sword is the tool. Personal opinion time, but if you're learning XXXXXXRyu you might want to use a sword such that they used in XXXXXXRyu historically. That is the point, right? Learning to use *that* weapon. *That* version. I've seen western swords that cut tatami *very* well. Why not train with that? It cuts good, right?

Anyway, this could lead into a major rant, but I'll cut that aspect off here. To me the real question that underlies things like "what cuts better" misses the point. My question is "what are you training for?" The blades of old don't tend to be super fast and balanced close to the tsuba. Some are, but most don't. Most don't have nakago running the length of the tsuka which pushes the balance out more. And they had a 1000 years to do such a thing and as a matter of fact did have full length nakago in the early tachi. But we're talking about what were very long blades with different size and sori used in a different fashion. Look at history. See what's there. See what was used. Saying something new in terms of shape, design, etc. is an improvement to me is dubious at best. Sure, metallurgy and heat treating methods may provide improvements (L6 bainite swords as an example), but unconventional shapes, mounting, etc. are less likely improvements or points of evolution. Remember that this craft is a meticulous, difficult craft that is *very* time consumming. If going to super fast blades (by going to a full nakago for example) was in fact a major improvement in survival value, a whole lot of swords would be that way. And yes, there are some like that. But most aren't.

Anyway, I tell my customers that if all you want is a cutter, I can help them make a cutter. But if they're studying a traditional art, well, let's make a proper traditional blade for their art. And they can grow into it as they learn their art. Which IMHO is as it should be. The emphasis on just cutting to the detriment of other aspects of training and tradition is just not a good idea IMHO.

[Jamison L. Morin]

Thank you Mr. Larman, you answered many questions that were in my head. Thank you again.

[Tom Van Hellemond]

Hi Mr Larman, how come u became so cautious? I feel the same thing, i use to post my IMHO thoughts on subjects but got flamed by people who try to make every posting into a "wordfight". As u see under my Avatar i consider myself not knowingly into the subject, and would think it would be a shame, that knowledgable people steer away from this forum because it always turns into a locked discussion. I posted a negative reply once about Bugei, ,wich i must admit had different thoughts about at first, probably out of envy because i had to buy a PPk instead of a Shobu zukuri, but had to adjust my thoughts about it. U gave IMHO opinion a rather emotional reply to it, and i felt sorry that i gave the impression that i was Anti Bugei. As i am a grown man i have the ability to see my faults and i don't mind beeing pointed at things that slipped my mind. Now i more and more see the trend that there are people inhere that are very unwilling to even consider anything but their own thruth. This makes this forum not a fun place to be anymore, nor will it help those who are new to the cause. Regarding POB, u don't have to be a space-ingeneer to understand that a heavy blade with a POB more to the front of the sword will cut better thru a hard target, and a thin blade with a pob more to the tsuka will make a lighter handling sword with less cutting power. Its like a hammer, the longer the handle and heavier the hammerhead the easier it hits nails, but the harder it swings around.

[Keith Larman]

In the 1000 years of sword craft in Japan, one thing was certain. If it worked it was retained. There is *very* little in a Japanese sword that wasn't done for a reason. We're not talking about fluffy "dress up and see the daimyo" mounts (baleen wraps, white silk jabara ito, etc.) but in the "user" swords of the day. And guess what? Those "user" swords are very carefully made. The mounts, the blades, the balance, the habaki, the koshirae, etc. were all done with the notion that form follows function. They didn't just randomly do things. There was a reason why there were long apprenticeships. There were reasons why the wraps were so symmetrical and tensioned. They didn't just take guys out of a factory making scissors and gardening equipment and start making swords. Nope, they had guys who understood swords making swords. The problem with many is that they *look* like swords in a sort of gross, caricature fashion (like the Chinese fakes on ebay) but to the experienced just look like amateurish attempts.

But today most don't want to hear that. Give them a low price and toss in some decorative thing and watch the people line up to buy. I am constantly amazed at how quickly people will turn off their higher cognitive functions if they get to save a few dollars. Or to satisfy that desire to get something they desperately want to be "great". When in fact it is more of the same, nothing new, and in actual fact just poorly done.

And the fact is that I think there is a place for all these things. A butt for every seat as they say. Some buy these things for all he right reasons and more power to them. However, too many insist that because they can't see the differences there are no differences. There are. Lots of them. That doesn' t mean they aren't fine things to have, just that there is a lot that ain't there. And just because someone doesn't know better doesn't mean there isn't better...

Bottom line is that I've almost completely given up on SFI. Here on the JSA forum there are some posting good stuff. On the Nihonto forum Guido, Craig and a few others are the saving grace. But overwhelmingly the forums have ventured into the realm of enthusiastic guys who've never seen a decent nihonto let alone a decent custom sword let alone a decent production sword arguing over what's good and what's correct. Bizarre. It's like watching 12 year olds discussing geopolitical issues. Little grains of truth here and there, but a phenominal lack of depth or subtlety.

So sure, maybe I've become that elitist I always dreaded I might become. Don't know. Don't care, frankly. Shrug. Bottom line is that I shouldn't be typing right now but either playing a frantic round of candyland with my daughter or else polishing to pay the mortgage.

[Leighton T.]

Well, there is this thread in the family section that alludes to some reasons why the more knowledgable people don't post that much anymore.

One reason is the redundancy. Keith has talked about POB and nakago and all that other stuff many many many times before. It gets tiring saying essentially the same thing over and over.

Other than that, I suppose people have better things to do than hang out with you or me.

[Keith Larman]

Originally posted by Leighton T.
Well, there is this thread in the family section that alludes to some reasons why the more knowledgable people don't post that much anymore.

One reason is the redundancy. Keith has talked about POB and nakago and all that other stuff many many many times before. It gets tiring saying essentially the same thing over and over.

Other than that, I suppose people have better things to do than hang out with you or me.

Nah, I'm as much a sword geek as anyone else. I'm always curious what's going on, what people are buying, and what the latest "gee whiz" stuff is.

But... That other thread referenced on why some aren't posting is pretty much to the point. I spent a *lot* of time answering what I could, slogging through mudslinging flamefests, etc. And even more of the same questions come up and the overall level is much lower IMHO. Of course that is probably greatly due to the increased popularity. That means more folk just starting and that means more of those sorts of questions. So not posting is as much about the content of the forums simply not being on the same issues any longer as it is about being hesitant to even bother when so many are defensive about their sword choices. Guess what, a $150 sword probably ain't as nice as a $400 sword which likely isn't as nice as a $800 sword which ain't as nice as a $1500 sword and so forth. Sure, some things are overpriced. But consider one basic idea in information theory. Information can only be compressed so much (file compression as an example) before information has to be lost to gain more compression. The same is true of swords. There is a limit at which to reduce cost significant corners have to be cut. And IMO those corners are cut hard and regularly on a lot of production swords. And if I point that out, well, some will see that as insulting their dream sword. And maybe they can't afford better. I'm sorry about that. Heck, I can't afford my own work. But no one said it has to be cheap or easy. Life isn't always fair.

Later, guys.

[Dan Harden]

I've little to add to what Keith offered (Hi Keith)
As usual you do a fine job of trying to be all-encompassing when addressing a topic with so much inherent complexity.
I think the small answer is that it is

the swordsman
the sword
the style
the target.


P.O.B. and ability to cut...........what?
Just what is...... it............ that is the very heart and point of your question.
Cut what and for what purpose?
Grass, bamboo, people in armor, people NOT in armor...what?

Are we theoretically fighting or standing in front of fixed targets?

Targets, blade styles and meanings
For grass use a long machete you will win. (You will lose on a battlefield as the blade will not hold up)
For bamboo? use a big tip-heavy cutter. (You will lose on a battlefield as...YOU....will not hold up, or recover fast enough to cut again and again)
People in armor? what thee hell are you trying to cut through that for in the first place in less you are daft. (Use a big dull-edged sword to bash- not cut) Or better yet a war-hammer
People NOT in armor? (Light and fast with quick recovery)

So what are we discussing? Should we not be discussing the overall point of combatives with blade styles in balance with historical use?

P.O.B. and what is the point
1. NONE of my swords have even a 6" P.O.B. they are all 5" or less with lengths of 28-30". Yet I cut 3" trees. There goes the mass and tip heavy argument. It is far better to have a well established distal taper from 5/16 or even 3/8"out to 3/16" at the yokote which aids in load resistance. And a diamond shaped (reduced Mune) cross-section.
2. In reality, this larger mass discussion is needed to do what? Just what do people think you are cutting anyway? This idea of tip heavy cutting can lead to some very vulnerable situations when you are doing anything more then cutting for some competition.
3. Do we believe we need POWER to cut into flesh and kill?

The majority of the cuts on a battlefield where in avoidance of armored body parts-thus the cuts were smaller and faster and in the in-and-out fashion. You were not bashing through plate and lamilar armor. And in many instances you are stabbing into openings to cut. Mass for what?

Recovery
As well you might consider forgetting all about your cut. Forget for a moment whether or not you succeeded and instead consider what happens next.
Let say- in your quest for this huge power cut-through mentality......that you miss.
Now it becomes how quickly you can reverse and regain target aquisition.
Next , lets say you did not miss and you made the cut. You still need to move and think of whom or what is next.
After you consider that- consider cutting and fighting for hours.....................
Personally, I'll take the light and fast arguement anyday.

In reality why all this focus on cutting-through anyway. It simply does not take all that much to cut and kill with a blade. Arteries and viens, tendons and muscle are fairly soft last time I checked.
If you can manage power, without too much over dedication of movement, with fast speed generation, while doing so with a light and fast weapon; you may have a good base to build with.
At any rate, we should be far more concerned with all of the many, more important aspects of sword work.

More important things
Perhaps we are seeing an oversimplification and an unrealistic focus on cutting instead of on the truly important aspects of sword work..........Staying alive.

A cut lasts for 1/100th of a second.
It takes thousands of hours training with someone who can challenge you and see your every effort undone- in order to produce that 1/100th of second cut that might be a success.

And it takes tens of thousands more to gain what might be considered a martial career and life that has any meaning resembling a success.

Cetaris parabis? Nothing in sword is.

Cheers
Dan

[Richard L. Johnson]

>>But today most don't want to hear that. Give them a low price and toss in some decorative thing and watch the people line up to buy.

I buy swords for two reasons.
Because they do what a sword is made to do or I have a project that needs one to play with.

Recently in my bid to buy a new blade, I was advertizing a heavy barbarian sword I had purchesed some 20 years ago but never used because it was too heavy for my size.
Got one reply about it and when I sent him pics, he was disapointed because it was a SWORD! and not some fantasy junker with chains and devil faces and spikes on the blade and all the garbage you find in a Bud K catalogue.

I tried to explain to him the difference between a sword and a piece of crap but he was the kind of over-aged goth-kid who shaves his head, wears nothing but black, carried a $2 boot knife in his swap-meet combat boots (never served so he had to buy them) and is an in-your-face guy who thinks that everyone hates him because he is gay.
No, we dislike you because you are a jerk who is always in-our-face!

But the fact that he wanted a Bud K fantasy over somehting that would really be a boon to his hand and look impressive on his hip proves that you are definitly right!

[Brent K.]

This is a very interesting post. Just to put my two cents in, I would say whatever feels right. I really appreciate when people get into the details of weight percentages etc. but for me it just comes down to how the sword feels in the end. If you have had any experience with a JSA you can tell if a sword is tip heavy, handle heavy etc. Both of which are not good in my opinion. There needs to be a perfect balance between the two. This perfect balance will obviously differ depending on the person and/or style. As an example, I really like the balance on my iaito; but when I held my Sensei's nihonto, the balance was exceptional and I could easily tell the difference between the two. Although his blade overall is much heavier than my iaito (my Sensei is over 6' tall), it felt lighter than my small 2.2 shaku iaito just because of the fact that its POB is "perfect" as it should be since it cost like $7,000. This is just my opinion. Thanks for the post.

[Carl McClafferty]

Folks:
I was very fortunate to have great Japanese Sensei(s) take the time to teach me both basics, kata and cutting. I'm not a sword maker nor polisher, but I have cut mucho. The shape, size, weight of the sword will allow you do diffent things. i.e. a very light blade will not allow you to cut as many goza or wara in dodan as well as one designed for dodan. But the design, weight or size of the blade doesn't bend it, you need some poor technique to accomplish that.

But as far as balance, that seems to be a personal feel thing. Regardless of the size or shape of the blade, I like the feel of a blade that is neither heavy in the tip nor too light in the tip but feels "balanced in my hands". Which I suspect would not feel balanced in some else's because "all things are not equal". So Mr. Leighton find a blade that feels balanced in your hands and you'll be okay regardless where the assumed balanced point might be.

Tony Alvarez, Bob Elder or Dave Drawdy and others might have a different opinion.

Carl McClafferty

[A.J. Bryant]

“Trick” swords produce trick swordsmen... Or, to put it another way: Toy swords produce toy swordsmen. ...

[J. Pitts]

This thread is well worth a "sticky".