Ninja swords...

[Ben Ryder]

I've heard all kinds of stories about why ninjas use straight swords.(more utility than curved blade, stabbing weapon, etc.). I've also heard that it was just because they couldn't afford to have a reputable smith make them a good fitted curved one. Any truth to this? Apparently, they could only afford to make small straight ones, and they would take any sword they could from slain samurai.

2nd Subject

I'm also wondering where to get a good ninja sword. The "best" I've seen is the Paul Chen Practical Ninja. I haven't found any other ninja sword that were actually forged. I'm not trying to avoid Paul Chen, but I'm wondering if I have any other options for a well made "ninja" blade. Thanks ahead of time, guys...

[Alexander Ingraham]

I heard somewhere that the ninja straight sword was a myth, and that the ninja used the three standard samurai sowrds (katana, wakazashi, and tanto) like everyone else of that era. Then again, I could be wrong. A lot of rumors floating around out there...

[Alexander Ingraham]

Update: Defied my own rule of: Look it up before you post. The Wikipedia Encyclopedia gives a interesiting explanation. Not entirely sure it's accurate, but I tend to trus an Encyclopedia more than just rumor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_Ken

[Ben Ryder]

Thanks for the great link. That's pretty much exactly what I read somewhere else. Anyone know where to get a decent one?

[Ben Ryder]

Sorry... decent ninja sword, not decent link...=)

[Tom Van Hellemond]

try PC, it's one of the few respectable manufacturers that dares to market a NINJA sword. After the big hype in the 80's around NINJA's most people in JSA steered away from watever sympathy they had for the Ninja as depicted in books , low budget films etc. I believe the Ninja MA style lost most of it's credebility because their own 20 century succes. There seems to be a big gap between traditional Japanese swordmanship and the so called "secret ninja". As i recall there has never been any historical correct evidence that ninja used straight swords. IMHO i haven't seen any pictures of original Ninja swords in museums etc. As the Japanese feudal system was very well defined in social class, it would be virtual impossible to carry this straight ninjasword around without drawing imediate attention by the local warlords. Because Ninja were thought of as lower then the eta, and even lower then the horse, i believe that regarding there specialist tactics as assasination squads or spy's, they used Katana's or even better Wakizashi's, because they didn't want to draw attention. Because only katana's could be worn by Samurai even carrying a large sword illegaly could get u killed very fast. IMHO the Ninja legend was exagerated in the kabuki theaters and because every character had to be obviously recognisable, they invented the black pyama's . I understand that all feudal warlords had samurai that went "ronin" for a while and were used as spies, or assasins. Now making a differential hardened straight Ninjasword is more difficult because the swords gets part of its curvature by the quenchingproces. So making a good straight ninja sword could mean that i would cost more then the same curved katana!!

[Ben Ryder]

Thank you for the advice on PC. Also, I can see where you are coming from with Ninjitsu making its own demise by its success. The black pajamas are also doubtful. However, I don't believe that the ninjas should be completly discredited. Obviously, walking around in black pajamas with a "hey, i'm a ninja" sword would not be smart. However, I doubt SWAT wears their outfits outside of work, no? They wore whatever they needed to blend/get the job done. I also don't think the art should be discredited because of the over-hype. The only real problem with that was the emergence of bogus teachers and baffoons claiming knowledge they didn't have. No different than United Cutlery claiming to make real katanas. It's unfortunate, but it's all about marketing.

[Choo-Leong Kua]

Update: Defied my own rule of: Look it up before you post. The Wikipedia Encyclopedia gives a interesiting explanation. Not entirely sure it's accurate, but I tend to trus an Encyclopedia more than just rumor.

This explanation is very troubling. The site even spells wakazashi wrong (its wakizashi), there is no sources given credit for the data involved. I have seen this explanation copied and pasted just about every website about ninja. Very likely a Hollywood myth that got integrated into reality by bluffing false knowledge. Tom's post explains a great deal about why the ninja sword does not exist. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum on Swordforum greatly with little or no evidence of the Hollywood style ninja sword.

[Eric Litton]

One thing to point out about Wikipedia is that its a user created site, you can edit the ninja ken page to make it correct.

Originally posted by Choo-Leong Kua
This explanation is very troubling. The site even spells wakazashi wrong (its wakizashi), there is no sources given credit for the data involved. I have seen this explanation copied and pasted just about every website about ninja. Very likely a Hollywood myth that got integrated into reality by bluffing false knowledge. Tom's post explains a great deal about why the ninja sword does not exist. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum on Swordforum greatly with little or no evidence of the Hollywood style ninja sword.

[Ty N.]

To address the initial part of this thread, the shorter straight blade of the ninjato is NOT the result of financial constraints.

Historically, ninja were hired by wealthy warlords who wanted to eliminate their rivals without getting 'blood on their hands' politically.

Ninjas were extremely well paid and well trained. In many ways, they were masters of guerilla warfare in feudal Japan.

Unlike the bushi (samurai), ninja did not view the sword as their first-line weapon. Their objective was to kill a target as quickly and quietly as possible, then escape without being noticed. To that end, they relied heavily on projectile weapons such as poisoned blow darts, shuriken, throwing knives, etc.

The ninjato's short length was better suited to close-quarters combat, and its lack of a sori (curve) was a matter of tradition. As for the blade, traditional ninjato were forged and differentially tempered, just as with a katana.

With regard to current mass-production models, Hanwei's Practical Ninja has a good blade, but I find its epoxy-glued tsuka to be, well, cheesy.

The Generation 2 BWT Ninja is the only traditionally mounted mass-production ninjato that I am aware of. It retails for $279, which is pricier than the Hanwei ninjato. However, I'll use this opportunity to highlight my own BWT Ninja, which is currently at auction for an excellent discount at the following URL:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

[G.A.MacMullen]

From what I heard, the Yagyu family (Yagyu Shinkage Ryu) wer said to have been involved in "ninja" type operations. Since their family style used your standard katana......wouldn't they use this blade on those missions? That is if they actually were involved in any type of thing.

[Eric Litton]

I would disagree with the idea that a straight blade sword for a ninja was traditional. Most information says that a straight bladed ninja sword is a modern creation.

It would also go against the idea of deception. It is most likely that Ninjas carried wakizashi lengthed blades with longer tsukas and sayas to trick their enemy into thinking they had a full length katana. The faster draw of a short blade allowed them to get the jump on their opponent. To keep this deception the saya would need to also be curved like a katana, but that wouldn't be the case with a straight sword.

Originally posted by Ty N.
To address the initial part of this thread, the shorter straight blade of the ninjato is NOT the result of financial constraints.

Historically, ninja were hired by wealthy warlords who wanted to eliminate their rivals without getting 'blood on their hands' politically.

Ninjas were extremely well paid and well trained. In many ways, they were masters of guerilla warfare in feudal Japan.

Unlike the bushi (samurai), ninja did not view the sword as their first-line weapon. Their objective was to kill a target as quickly and quietly as possible, then escape without being noticed. To that end, they relied heavily on projectile weapons such as poisoned blow darts, shuriken, throwing knives, etc.

The ninjato's short length was better suited to close-quarters combat, and its lack of a sori (curve) was a matter of tradition. As for the blade, traditional ninjato were forged and differentially tempered, just as with a katana.

With regard to current mass-production models, Hanwei's Practical Ninja has a good blade, but I find its epoxy-glued tsuka to be, well, cheesy.

The Generation 2 BWT Ninja is the only traditionally mounted mass-production ninjato that I am aware of. It retails for $279, which is pricier than the Hanwei ninjato. However, I'll use this opportunity to highlight my own BWT Ninja, which is currently at auction for an excellent discount at the following URL:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

[Ty N.]

I have read much of the academic literature which downplays the possibility that ninjas used straight blades as opposed to the traditional curved blades.

While it is true that there are no known examples of the straight ninjato in museum collections, one should also factor in the reasons why such blades would not be preserved for display.

First, ninja were considered dishonorable within feudal Japanese society. Many were former samurai who abandoned or betrayed their lords, an act which would instantly mark them for death.

These rogue samurai often collaborated with each other, sometimes recruiting peasants and training them in the martial arts. In any case, their profession had the irony of both high demand and deep dishonor.

The antique swords which survive in museums and private collections are the blades which symbolized status and honor to the privileged families that owned and preserved them. To display or preserve a symbol of dishonor was unthinkable in traditional Japanese culture.

This being said, it is also highly likely that ninja used curved blades such as the wakizashi and tanto, since these were less conspicuous, and equally effective.

[Choo-Leong Kua]

True, a Ninja's sword would likely not be preserved due to its symbolic effect, but modern day JSA associated with Ninja don't use a straight blade, they use shorter katana with shallower sori at best, but not the musori one everyone is so familiar with. The musori chiisa-gatana Kenjutsu doesn't exist in modern Ninjutsu. Many people have asked Masaaki Hatsumi about the Ninjato and he only showed a wakizashi mounted in a katana mount as being the closest to a Ninjato.

There are many historical woodcuts depicting Ninja, but all the Ninja's swords were curved in them. Many attempts were made to suppress Ninja information in Japanese history- but many of their tools and techniques were still recorded. Shuriken, kunai, grenades, medicine, and many others were documented and have a jutsu associated with them but no record of a special sword being used or acknowledged seems odd.

[R.S. Miller]

It would also go against the idea of deception. It is most likely that Ninjas carried wakizashi lengthed blades with longer tsukas and sayas to trick their enemy into thinking they had a full length katana. The faster draw of a short blade allowed them to get the jump on their opponent. To keep this deception the saya would need to also be curved like a katana, but that wouldn't be the case with a straight sword.

YES YES YES..... and YES... I have a "Ninjato" it is exactly how you have described it. a wakizashi in a longer saya. To be perfectly honest though, the tsuka isn't THAT much longer. Now I doubt that it was actually used, but it's completely ancient. It's the only antique nihonto I own, but I have held many. The tsuka is in bad shape, and someone tried to RETEMPER the blade. It is a very fragile sword now.

AAARRGGGG!!! I need to get a digital camera and take some pics. WAIT my girlfreinds mother. She has one. I'll try to borrow it and post a pic soon

[Ty N.]

I've read some historical papers which claim that 'ninjutsu' was directly derived from 'kenjutsu'. This would seem logical, since many ninja were former samurai. Any thoughts on this?

[Choo-Leong Kua]

Kenjutsu is the art of of the sword, ninjutsu is the art of stealth which isn't too specific- I read it accompasses a wide array of skills from combat to reconnaisance. Ninjutsu has a form of kenjutsu in it, but I don't think it is derived directly, more likely incorporated a form of kenjutsu along with other skills a Ninja would find useful.

[Ben Ryder]

I just started training in Ninjitsu. I should have waited to post my question until after I started. The ninjitsu sword style is mainly a quickdraw style, and the shorter sword with overly long sheath went along with that. No real details thus far on the curved vs. straight, but I will ask my instructor about it next class. What I've heard is that it was easier to stab with a straight blade, though.

The idea in the ninjitsu sword style was to do a fast draw and win the fight with the least amount of parry/swordplay possible...
This would go along with the over size handled wakizashi in the katana saya. Or, like the PC ninja, just have a longer saya on the straight short blade. However, it seems to me that a straight blade would be harder to draw quickly.

[Mark Matthewman]

unfortunatly my only knowledge of Ninjas come from cheesy 80s movies so please take this question seriously. How much is actually known about the ninja? Other than from modern day senseis ( who I am hesitant to believe as a result of thier financial motivation) what sources exist that describe the ninja and thier techniques and uses?

[Paul Williams]

"The idea in the ninjitsu sword style was to do a fast draw and win the fight with the least amount of parry/swordplay possible..." Ben Ryder
Ben I thought this was the general point of most iaido based arts the quick draw the single cut etc. I would make sense for Ninja's to follow the same line of reasoning but its not exclusive to ninja style sword work.

[Ty N.]

The scarce knowledge of ninja that has survived history indicates that many were former samurai, or commoners recruited and trained by ex-samurai. No indication that they wore black PJ's. Some sketches depict them wearing samurai armor. Also, it is true that the curved wakizashi was probably their blade of choice, although I suspect they used a vast variety of blades. They were also known for their projectile weapons, many of which were very similar to Chinese weapons. Not sure about those Ninja Turtles -- still looking into that.

[Choo-Leong Kua]

Other than from modern day senseis ( who I am hesitant to believe as a result of thier financial motivation) what sources exist that describe the ninja and thier techniques and uses?

Well, the best evidence of Ninja and their techniques lies in historical battles where Ninja's use unorthodox methods to fight, mainly guerrila warfare and psychological warfare against the opposing force. In Stephen Turnbull's book: Ninjutsu: The Truth About Japans’ Secret Warrior Cult there are many instances of use of such tactics. There are many historical woodcuts in this book that depict Ninja whereing dark clothing and hoods similar to the Shinobi-Gi everyone recognizes which looks like a dark colored hakama and gi with the wrists and ankles bound by a cloth, although the actual color is supposedly closer to a very dark red as opposed to pure black according to Masaaki Hatsumi. Although they wouldn't wear the Shinobi-Gi at every possible moment like Hollywood wants us to believe.

The most credible source of techniques used by the Ninja would probably come from Masaaki Hatsumi himself who is the direct descendent to the Togakure art.

[R.S. Miller]

This would be good information to know. Since I posted my last reply, I've been thinking. With such limited info about this subject, it's possible that mine isn't actually authentic. I mean... it seems ancient, but as I've described, it's been seriousely abused. The man who sold it to me, said that he obtained it from a guy who tried to re-temper the blade (also as I said). All I go on is by what he told me, and the style of the blade. All I really know is that it's folded... but even that could be mistaken.

Like I said before, I've handled many nihon-to, HOWEVER, I know that many (ok MOST) of you would have FAR superior experienxe than I. I WILL post some pics so that soeone can set my mind at ease.... or inform me that I really DON'T have anything other than the modern in my collection.

[Robert Barbrow]

i was always told that they were a myth because the ninja would most likely not want anything on them that identified them as a ninja

also they would use something short so they could conceal it in shirt or sleve

[Zach H.]

about the question of alternatives to the PC straight-bladed ninja sword-

i found this page, from the steel source catalog. check it out- looks like 2 alternatives.