Dadao and other two-handers.

[Sal Vagos]

My "neighborhood" is the Migration Era of Europe, so I'm venturing into new territory here.

If I am correct, the "Dadao" is the two-handed version of the "Dao" or single-edged saber. I have a few questions.

- Was the Dadao considered a "brute" or "riff-raff" weapon for big musclebound types (brigands, pirates, evil henchmen, etc.) or was there a highly developed art attached to it, much like there was to the massive two-handers of the European Reformation Era?

- Were there ever any "hand-and-a-half" Dao, that is, a sword that is balanced and weighted for one hand yet has a hilt for two hands?

- I've seen many items that could either be polearms or swords, i.e. they have a really long hilt yet have a sword blade. I saw one of those in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon"... in the scene where the policeman was killed by Jade Fox in the courtyard at night. What's the story behind those?

- Were there ever any two-handed or hand-and-a-half double-edged straight swords? I have never seen an example of anything like that at all, so my guess is that there wasn't.

- What other two-handers were used in the Sino region? I know that the Japanese swords derived much of their early influence from the swords of coastal China, and I've seen something that resembled very much a NoDachi that was labeled as Chinese.

Any photos or drawings or weblinks would be especially helpful. Thanks in advance.

[Eric Litton]

Theres a highly developed art attached to most chinese weapons. The Dadao seems to be more of a force weapon than the jian.

Heres a picture of the Cold Steel Dadao:


there is a discussion about two handed Jians in the chinese forum.

Here is a picture of Cold Steels New two handed Jian.

[Thomas Chen]

Qing Dynasty Emperor Qianlong (ruled 1736-1795) era Imperial 2-handed saber (belonging to Scott Rodell):




Qin Dynasty 2-handed bronze swords (221-206 BC):

[Thomas Chen]

Dear Sal

The Chinese had started using steel 2-handed swords during the mid-Warring States period onwards (around 350 BC). They also developed 2-handed bronze swords during the Qin Dynasty (221- 206 BC). These 2-handed bronze and steel double-edged weapons became especially popular during the early part of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD), but they were supplanted by single-handed and double-handed backswords by the later part of the Han.

According to archaeological digs of some Tang Dynasty tomb paintings, double-handed backswords were also standard equipment for the Imperial Guards of the Sui and Tang Dynasties (581 - 907 AD).

Tang mural painting dated 767 AD



In the Song Dynasty, a massive double-handed backsword called the "zhanmadao" or "Horse Chopping Sword" was devised in 1072 AD to enable Chinese infantry units to take down the enemy's heavy cavalry.

Song 2-handed backsword:


This weapon continued to be in service during the Ming and Qing Dynasties:

Below -- From Seven Stars Trading website, Imperial Guard escorting Qing Dynasty Emperor Kangxi with his"zhanmadao"


Pic below: Qing Imperial (custom-forged ??) zhanmadao



The Qing Dynasty's Green Standard Army (consisting of 600,000 ethnic Han Chinese troops throughout most of the 18th century) had used this zhanmadao and (if I am not wrong) another shorter 2-handed saber known as the "wodao".

The elite Northern Border Troops under the command of Ming General Qi Jiguang during the the 1570s-80s had also used another type of 2-handed saber known as the "changdao"; its design inspired by the Japanese nodachi.


As for the weapon you mentioned which appeared in the "grouchy tiger, sleepy dragon" movie:




2 pics of Ming troops with this weapon are at:
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo6.html

And finally, of course, you have the "Da Dao" used by Republican, Nationalist and Communist soldiers in the 1920s-40s....



Check out also Scott Rodell's excellent article on illustrations of 2-handed swords at:
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/qin.html

[Thomas Chen]

Qing Qianlong era Royal Imperial saber with 2-handed or "hand and a half" grip:

[Thomas Chen]

Hi Manoucher and guys

I am glad that you like these pics...Check out this pic of Qing General Mingliang with his 2-handed Imperial saber.....

Just joking...the image has been digitally modified to shown a 2-handed saber...when it is actually single-handed.....

[Thomas Chen]

Han Dynasty era excavated 2-handed steel Jians (around 100 BC):

[Thomas Chen]

Han Dynasty tomb mural engraving of warrior holding his backsword (dao) with a 2-handed grip....

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Sal Vagos

If I am correct, the "Dadao" is the two-handed version of the "Dao" or single-edged saber. I have a few questions.

Your Questions & Short Answers:
- Was the Dadao considered a "brute" or "riff-raff" weapon for big musclebound types (brigands, pirates, evil henchmen, etc.) or was there a highly developed art attached to it, much like there was to the massive two-handers of the European Reformation Era?

Both. There are military forms that are rather simple & quick to learn. These look to be designed for use in ranks, as they are very linear. There are also more complex forms that cover everything from close quarter techniques to long range.

There are also what I generally refer to as Rebellion Sabers. They are dadao that have have markings clearly assoicating them with one of the 19th. Rebellions (such as the Taiping). They usually have the balance of a baseball bat & are unbalanced when you attempt to use them with one hand. I believe these were your basic hacked 'em up weapon employed by untrained peasants turned revolutionaries.

- Were there ever any "hand-and-a-half" Dao, that is, a sword that is balanced and weighted for one hand yet has a hilt for two hands?

We don't see what I would call a "hand-and-a-half" grip as I understand that term. However, we have encountered many Chinese two handers that balance well for either single or two handed use. The more sophisticated two handed sword forms use a number of grips, including single handed.

There are also forms that mainly use a single handed grip, but use a two handed grip for a few specialize movements. The Northern Wu Style Taijijian is one. So they like a slightly longer grip on their jian. You might call this sword a "hand-and-a-half", but that's not a Chinese term.

- I've seen many items that could either be polearms or swords, i.e. they have a really long hilt yet have a sword blade. I saw one of those in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon"... in the scene where the policeman was killed by Jade Fox in the courtyard at night. What's the story behind those?

They are polearms. The dividing line is the handle to blade ratio. When the handle, equals or excedes the blade length, its a polearm. Those with roughly a 50/50 ratio were designed for use by infantry facing cavalry. The longer reach allowed them to deal with mounted opponents, but these arms could still be wielded at short range, somewhat like a sword once riders were dismounted.

- Were there ever any two-handed or hand-and-a-half double-edged straight swords? I have never seen an example of anything like that at all, so my guess is that there wasn't.

There were, but two handed jian are quite rare. In ten years as a dealer & researcher & 30 as a martial artist, I've handled over 2000 antique Chinese weapons. I've only encounter 2, two handed jian. I owned both of them.

- What other two-handers were used in the Sino region? I know that the Japanese swords derived much of their early influence from the swords of coastal China, and I've seen something that resembled very much a NoDachi that was labeled as Chinese.

Several kinds, I think Thomas Chen's illustrations can give you a good idea of the variety. Just keep in mind that while two handers have a 2,000 year history in China, they were always a minority tradition.

[Fubo X]

i'm chinese and here's my 2-cents:

the word "Dao" means any single edged knives, which includes single edged swords and single edged knives eg. kitchent knives.

double edged swords, are generally called "jian". note, jian only refers to swords, never knives.

the word "Da" simply means big. so dadao means "big single edged knife" or just "singled edged sword". ie. big knife = sword.

jian is generally considered as a weapon of grace and romance, so it's often used by generals and heros in stories. in reality the dao is much more practical, it's a weapon of war, so soldiers always are seen carring a dao rather than a jian.

Originally posted by Sal Vagos
My "neighborhood" is the Migration Era of Europe, so I'm venturing into new territory here.

If I am correct, the "Dadao" is the two-handed version of the "Dao" or single-edged saber. I have a few questions.

- Was the Dadao considered a "brute" or "riff-raff" weapon for big musclebound types (brigands, pirates, evil henchmen, etc.) or was there a highly developed art attached to it, much like there was to the massive two-handers of the European Reformation Era?

[Sal Vagos]

Now, was the jian ever used as a weapon of mass combat, or was it more for dueling or heroic type field combat (like what the Ancient Celts did, or what the Samurai did sometimes)? For instance, the rapier was as deadly as any European sword could ever be, yet on the field you had to have something bigger and meaner to do the job (that could take sustained abuse and cut through certain types of armor with a two-handed blow, or thrust into/under plate or through mail without breaking), such as a broadsword or later on, a hanger (saber). Were there any thicker meaner jians meant for mass combat, or were there some typical graceful and thin examples that were suitable for it?

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Sal Vagos
...was the jian ever used as a weapon of mass combat, or was it more for dueling or heroic type field combat?.., Were there any thicker meaner jians meant for mass combat, or were there some typical graceful and thin examples that were suitable for it?

Jian disappeared from the battlefield during the Ming dynasty, but it remained in wide spread use as a civilian side arm, or weapon of personal choice among skilled martial artists through to end of the period of bladed weapon combat.

During periods where gentry led militia did a lot fighting, such as during the Taiping Rebellion, the gentry leadership usually carried jian as a sign of there rank & refinement as scholars & not peasant ruffians.

There was no difference in weight between battleflied & other full length jian (adverage weight about 1 1/2 lbs.). Chinese sword steel is quite good, in fact the better known Japanese swords are made by a method they learned from the Chinese during the Tang dynasty. So, they didn't need mass, just proper technique.

[Fubo X]

i've read in a article noting distinctions between battle and personal use jians. the war/combat jian is called "Wu Jian" ie. Wu = martial arts. the personal use jian is called "Wen Jian" ie. Wen = book learning.

in that article, Wu Jian was translated as War Sword and Wen Jian as Scholer's Sword. so there definately was a distinction between battle field jian and civilian use jian.

Originally posted by Sal Vagos
Now, was the jian ever used as a weapon of mass combat, or was it more for dueling or heroic type field combat (like what the Ancient Celts did, or what the Samurai did sometimes)? For instance, the rapier was as deadly as any European sword could ever be, yet on the field you had to have something bigger and meaner to do the job (that could take sustained abuse and cut through certain types of armor with a two-handed blow, or thrust into/under plate or through mail without breaking), such as a broadsword or later on, a hanger (saber). Were there any thicker meaner jians meant for mass combat, or were there some typical graceful and thin examples that were suitable for it?

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

Though you guys might like to see my digital recreation of what a Qing Imperial zhanmadao would look like, based on the original photo of Scott's Rodell's extremely rare Imperial 2-handed saber......FYI, the original zhanmadao is over 1.5 meters long.

[Thomas Chen]

Hi fellas...

Check out this illustration of Sui Dynasty (581 - 618 AD) excavated pottery figures currently in the collection of the Museum of Chinese History in Beijing -- these gentlemen were members of the Sui Imperial Guards, equipped with breastplate armour and 2-handed backswords known as "yidao". Note their scabbard suspension systems, a design transmitted from Persia....

[Thomas Yuan]

Wen Jian's are like your standard Taichi/Wushu straight sword. They have a very thin blade, and are more graceful than the dao. However, I have seen a Wu Jian on my shifu's wall. The blade is rather broad, perfect to smash through armor.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Fubo X
...a article noting distinctions between battle and personal use jians. the war/combat jian is called "Wu Jian" ... "Wen Jian"...so there definately was a distinction between battle field jian and civilian use jian.

I've heard this repeated over the years, but never seen any primary source evidence to support this statement, nor any difference in actual period jian or how they are represented in period paintings. This is most likely another example of martial lore being mistaken for historical fact.

[Justin Gifford]

Originally posted by Scott M. Rodell
I've heard this repeated over the years, but never seen any primary source evidence to support this statement, nor any difference in actual period jian or how they are represented in period paintings. This is most likely another example of martial lore being mistaken for historical fact.

Thank you, Mr. Rodell. I had long wondered if this was a historical distinction or, as you said, martial lore as I suspected. As far as I can tell, it is a confusion of duan jian compared with longer jian or military jian.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Justin Gifford
...As far as I can tell, it is a confusion of duan jian compared with longer jian or military jian.

I hadn't thought of that, it could very well be that at one time duan jian were refered to as Wen Jian because they would have only been carried by the literarti for self defense. Its a reasonable theory at least.

[Thomas Chen]

One helpful gentleman at the Chinese swordforum was kind enough to post this pic, an exquisite 2-handed saber belonging to Qing Emperor Kangxi himself who bequeathed it together with his suit of armour, during a visit to a temple. I believe this saber is the original in which a Taiwanese firm had based on to make copies of for sale....

Hey, it kinda reminds me of a dha/dharb.....and I just love the dragon tunkou (collar at the forte)...

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by T. Chen
...2-handed saber belonging to Qing Emperor ...
reminds me of a dha/dharb.....and I just love the dragon tunkou (collar at the forte)...

Quite a curious piece. It reminds me of a few minority pieces I saw in Yunnan province last month. At the very least we can say that it is not of Han origin or a standard Chinese form. We might speculate that it was a tribute piece from either a minority group from SW China or a SW Asian nation.

Thomas- any info on where this piece & the armor are now? What book is this photo from?

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

I just compiled a list of 8 Qing Dynasty Imperial 2-handers and their dimensions (in Chinese feet, where 1 foot equals approximately 31 centimeters)

The first 6 have blades of this type...


whereas the last 2 have blades of this type...

[Doug Mullane]

.

[Jeffrey Quinn]

Regarding the post by Thomas Chen with the picture of the unusual dao given by Kangxi to a temple:

The bold characters say "Dragon engraved dao bestowed by Emperor Kangxi to Suifu Temple"

All I can make out from the part of the paragraph is what Thomas Chen said, ie, that Emperor Kangxi gave the sword and some armor to Suifu Temple. There is some stuff about a commemoration followed by a date in the old calendar. However, I think the paragraph refers to the sword as Yao Dao or waist dao. I can't really be sure because not all of the sentence is there, and because my formal Chinese is a little weak. However, I think this just means that it's worn around the waist.

You can check out the temple by searching for ËË on Google if your computer has Chinese support installed. All entries are in Chinese.

[Buddy Tripp]

Again I must bow to everyone elses knowledge of swords and swordplay. I just want to mention a fact that I am certain you are all already aware of of. In baguazhang we use oversize weapons (dadao) as single handed training implements for training structure and body alignment along with waist power. My own dadao is only a few years old. It's about 8lbs and 5 feet long. It was told to me by one of his early his disciples that the bagua master Fu Chensong's dadao weighed 30 lbs! Unfortunalty he buried it during the Cultural Revloution and could never find it again.
Buddy