Rurouni Kenshin anime partially real?

[Arjun Singh]

Im not getting my hopes up, and im not trying to make fantasy into reality.

If anyone has seen the anime Rurouni Kenshin than you would wonder yourself. Yes, there was a meiji area where swords were banned, there were groups called Ishin Shishi and Shinsen Gumi. And there even was an edo castle.

Ive heard though that there were actually assasins named hitokiri (im not sure if this is even a real japanese word, ive heard so many different opinions- well, what people say is truth, but most is conflicting with other things ive heard.)-

One thing ive heard that i find it hard to believe, is that the character Saitou Hajime actually existed and was a captain of the Shinsen Gumi. I have never been able to find actual information on this, every search for this name ends up finding Kenshin websites. And i cant find him in any japanese history books or sites. In fact, i cant even find anything about the real Ishinshishi or Shinsen Gumi. If anyone does know of sites or has information on these please let me know, im not just getting all hyped over this anime being real, im just interested in that era and those gumis and clans.

thanks
Arjun

[Jared M.]

Keep it in mind that I'm only regurgitating things that I've read, or heard, and by no means makes me an authority on this subject or a historian. Nor does it make anything I say fact or true. Everything I'm saying could easily prove false or just sheer rumour. But here's what I "know." The Rurouni Kenshin series is loosely, I repeat loosely based on historical fact. There was an assassin named the hitokiri battousai (a.k.a) Himura Kenshin. But next to nothing is known about him except the time in which he existed, the fact he killed people, and his cute little title. I think, (I stress the work think) that is translates loosely (very loosely) into "man who draws and cuts" *shrugs* they aren't even sure of the exact date he died. Most of the character's existed at the same time in reality. But there was never any evidence of any sort of interaction between any of them. The Shinsen Gumi did exist and the captain of the third squad was Saito Hajime, who was known for his left handed thrust. Other characters like Soji Okita, also had some historical basis. All the author of Rurouni Kenshin did was take several prominent figures from that given era, and give them his own fictional personalities, and developed a string of conjecture to link them and their actions together to form his story. Thusly it is a series "based" on historical fact.

[Ben Acosta]

Jared got it right.

Just to add, if you have access to Kenshin Manga online, most of the time it has some of the authors thoughts on charaters.. that explains more on their background and stuff.

(heres a site with just the translated text http://www.maigo-chan.org/ruroken.htm)

[Chris deMonch]

The man Kenshin was based on was a guy named Kawakami Gensai who was from Higo Prefecture. He was one of 4 Hitokiri (the others were from either Satsuma or Tosa) working against the Bakufu and used a sword style called either Shiranui or Furanui Ryu. His most famous assassination was the killing of this one dude in broad daylight, but I can't remember exactly who it was. After the war was over Gensai didn't like the direction the government was headed in and he made a stink about it. So the government brought him up on some fake charges and had him beheaded.
There was a website a while ago that had a profile of him as well as a bunch of other renouned kenshi but I can't find it anymore. It even had a pic of his grave.

[Arjun Singh]

wow thanks, i put in that name at google and came up with this site

http://sword.ne.jp/swordsmen/bushi/gensai.html

thanks for the info that is going to help a lot, i didnt even know if hitokiri was a real title before this.

Originally posted by Chris deMonch
The man Kenshin was based on was a guy named Kawakami Gensai who was from Higo Prefecture. He was one of 4 Hitokiri (the others were from either Satsuma or Tosa) working against the Bakufu and used a sword style called either Shiranui or Furanui Ryu. His most famous assassination was the killing of this one dude in broad daylight, but I can't remember exactly who it was. After the war was over Gensai didn't like the direction the government was headed in and he made a stink about it. So the government brought him up on some fake charges and had him beheaded.
There was a website a while ago that had a profile of him as well as a bunch of other renouned kenshi but I can't find it anymore. It even had a pic of his grave.

[Chris deMonch]

Sure enough that's the page I was talkin about.

[Adan Dozal]

I was wondering if anyone knew why a Sakabatou would have problems in being made because of something to do with blade geometry and why would it cost so much (I heard, but can not prove this) to be made...if it can...

I was told it was requested on www.swords-online.com but the person was told that it would cost to much and that blade geometry thing...

Also does anyone know if such a katana exists as one without a blade but made of metal. What is the name of that particular kind of katana, is there one in existance, show me proof/picture if possible please.

In addition does anyone know what size a katana normally is forged into (hilt to blade).

[Wu Tuan]

Kenshin is one of my fav anime series ever. And basically...whoever posted before hit everything straight on the nail. it is very loosely based upon the 4 hitokiris. but as far as watsuki said, everything about the shinsen gumi is as close as he tried to make it. i believe he said that this year at Anime Expo. dam me, i didn't get his autograph.
but...was venturing around, and i believe they make some replica blades of the kenshin stuff. like...aoshi's twin kodachis, shishio's mugen jin blade , and our hero that goes ORO?!! . working models with live blades, im not too sure, i personally don't read japanese, but my friend does. he sent them to me.

[Ben Acosta]

Originally posted by Wu Tuan

but...was venturing around, and i believe they make some replica blades of the kenshin stuff. like...aoshi's twin kodachis, shishio's mugen jin blade , and our hero that goes ORO?!! . working models with live blades, im not too sure, i personally don't read japanese, but my friend does. he sent them to me.

Wow, that's some pretty nice stuff!

I am a big fan of that series as well, and i'd probably buy all of that!!

[Ed Connolly]

Now if Kenshin would just buy a helmet

[Rick Noble]

Originally posted by Adan Dozal
I was wondering if anyone knew why a Sakabatou would have problems in being made because of something to do with blade geometry and why would it cost so much (I heard, but can not prove this) to be made...if it can...

A katana is actually first made as a straight blade, but it is then heat treated, which results in the curve you see. What this does is create a strong edge at the front of the blade to resist damage, and a softer back to provide flexibility so it is not broken easily.

The problem with the Sakabato is that it is backwards. You would have the soft steel in front, and the harder steel facing back towards yourself. The sword would be easily damaged, and not as resistant to breaking.

Also does anyone know if such a katana exists as one without a blade but made of metal. What is the name of that particular kind of katana, is there one in existance, show me proof/picture if possible please.

Do you mean a blade with out an edge?

In addition does anyone know what size a katana normally is forged into (hilt to blade).

Katana were made in a variety of different sizes, depending on their purpose and the size of the user. Traditionally though IIRC, it should be long enough that if you hold it down by your leg, the tip is fairly close to the ground.

[Jared M.]

Hey Wu,


I don't suppose you would have any info or could get any info on how to purchase some of the swords that you posted?

[Wu Tuan]

sorry, no idea. but, ill ask my friend about those links, if they say any other info. im not exactly...full japanese literate. but...if i did, i would prolly grab those twin kodachis.
or even those...er...
remember way back in the begining of the series around the episodes where Raijutta shows up to conquer all Japan? believe it was episode 19, and Raijutta had this one henchman that could attach his swords together at the end. i want one of those. er...lemme find my manga, im sure his name is...er...i think they refer to him as Headband. but i want those double sword thingies. anybody kno their real name?

[Adan Dozal]

Do you mean a blade with out an edge?

Ya but made out of metal, kinda like a kendo stick but metallic...

A katana is actually first made as a straight blade, but it is then heat treated, which results in the curve you see. What this does is create a strong edge at the front of the blade to resist damage, and a softer back to provide flexibility so it is not broken easily.

The problem with the Sakabato is that it is backwards. You would have the soft steel in front, and the harder steel facing back towards yourself. The sword would be easily damaged, and not as resistant to breaking.

Why is the blade stronger than the back?? This should be able to be reversed(soft back and strong edge) but I imagine that the process would not be easy/cheap. If not then can you add a piece similar to the back where the edge is on the Sakabatou but only on the bottom so that it can provide better durability??

[Chris deMonch]

Originally posted by Adan Dozal


Ya but made out of metal, kinda like a kendo stick but metallic...



Why is the blade stronger than the back?? This should be able to be reversed(soft back and strong edge) but I imagine that the process would not be easy/cheap. If not then can you add a piece similar to the back where the edge is on the Sakabatou but only on the bottom so that it can provide better durability??

As Mr. Noble was saying when its in the forging process a katana is mostly straight. The curvature happens during the cooling process because the back cools faster than the blade so it develops a curve. I'm not a bladesmith so I don't really know the long and short of it, but I believe the problem with a sakabato is that you would have to reshape it while its cooling or something to that effect. Regardless, I tend to side with them in the opinion that it simply would not be worth it. I could imagine wanting to own a replica sakabato as a novelty but thats as far as it goes.

[Adan Dozal]

So this heat treating, can it be done to say...a bastard sword, a falchion (sp), or the blade of a glaive; to make it curve of course...(a curved bastard sword...*shudders but then ponders...*)

If it can be done as such then just heat treat a bastard sword and cut it in half (although the very tip of the sword will have to be shaped like a "V" so that when it is cut the "V" will be part of the Sakabatou and the other side of the "V" will be for a regular katana (nm, it will be two Sakabatous...).

EDIT:
It would make only one Sakabatou and then have the other part of the bastard sword be ruined...that is if the bastard sword could be heat treated to curve like a katana. This is just speculation because I do not know under what exact conditions a katana has to pass through so that it looks like the end result of that magnificent blade, so please be gentle, I know I am ignorant to the creation of a katana.

I will try to draw a picture on Paint.

[Rick Noble]

Originally posted by Adan Dozal

Ya but made out of metal, kinda like a kendo stick but metallic...

I don't know of anything like this, nor am I sure what use it would be. The closest you would find would be a Jutte (the weapon of the Japanese police during the Edo period.)

Why is the blade stronger than the back?? This should be able to be reversed(soft back and strong edge) but I imagine that the process would not be easy/cheap. If not then can you add a piece similar to the back where the edge is on the Sakabatou but only on the bottom so that it can provide better durability??

The blade is stronger than the back because it is where all of the contact is going to be made. Without getting into the edge/flat parry debate, it will still need to have the strength to resist chipping or denting. The back is then softer so that the sword has some flex and give to absorb the shock of impact.

And yes, it would be possible to make a Sakabatou. However, there really aren't any smiths with the required skill level that would be willing to deal with the copywright infringment and other problems with such a sword. They are putting their name on what is, too put it bluntly, not a sword, merely a piece of steel that bears some passing resemblence to a sword. Such a thing would be dangerous, due to the inherent weakness of the design.

And no, I'm not trying to rag on Kenshin. My roommates introduced me to it, and we watched the first two seasons recently. It's just not something that people should take sword design advice from.

[Ben Acosta]

Originally posted by Rick Noble

My roommates introduced me to it, and we watched the first two seasons recently.

[off topic]
For what is all right, and good in the world... DO NOT watch the 3rd Season.. it's all crap... instead.. watch the first OVA..it's so good if you don't cry at the end, you should send it back.
[/off topic]

[Adan Dozal]

This part confuses me:

However, there really aren't any smiths with the required skill level that would be willing to deal with the copywright infringment and other problems with such a sword.

--------------------------

Such a thing would be dangerous, due to the inherent weakness of the design.

You mean the whole blade geometry and how it is hard to make the blade soft and the back (front) strong??

[Adan Dozal]

I actually found a picture of a Sakabatou, but if it is doctored or fake is beyond me...

http://www.n-p-s.net/sakabatou.htm

[Chris deMonch]

I've seen these before. From what I understand that thing is basically a zinc blade just with the simulated hamon on the back instead of the front so that it can appeal to Kenshin fans. Somewhere else on that site they also sell a copy of Shishio's serrated katana. They're both nonfunctional.

[Adan Dozal]

Rick I was wondering if you could answer the question I posted before that link. I should have stressed that is was directed at you but I thought it was obvious or you have not checked out the post in a while...

[Sherman Chow]

Hey all,
this info provided is from Nathan Scott Sensei's homepage. It's a great page about Shinkendo and information in general. It includes the practicality of making a sakabato with opinions by Randal Graham, a bad ass So here's the link and have at it.

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/faq.html#10

[Rick Noble]

Originally posted by Adan Dozal
Rick I was wondering if you could answer the question I posted before that link. I should have stressed that is was directed at you but I thought it was obvious or you have not checked out the post in a while...

The interview with Randal Graham in the post above says everything I would say to answer this, only better.

[Hallelujah Joy Guerrero]

Originally posted by Chris deMonch
I've seen these before. From what I understand that thing is basically a zinc blade just with the simulated hamon on the back instead of the front so that it can appeal to Kenshin fans. Somewhere else on that site they also sell a copy of Shishio's serrated katana. They're both nonfunctional.

There is a way to create a blade with the dimensions of a katana where the "hard" edge part of the blade was in the the inside "concave" part, while the "soft" durable part in the "convex" by simply forging the blade like a long scythe.

From what I know, the Japanese swordsmiths just before and during the Meiji era knew how to do this (the reverse "bending" of the true edge) since they had to convert what they know to create "civilian" blades to eke out a living. A Sakabatou can be created, and keep the blade geometry intact, and still be durable enough to be effective and functional.

Of course, it is dangerous to wield the way Kenshin does in the series, where he guides the concave (and sharp) part of the sword with his left hand in making what is essentially hammer blow strikes.