Who would have used a buckler?

[Geoff Freeman]

I have read/heard that bucklers were mostly carried by "serving men" (quote from the Arms and Armor website, I think). Now, does this mean, as I think it would mean, a squire? I cannot believe that by "serving man" it would be meant as a simple servant. Or, would the buckler be worn with a sword by a knight in the late middle ages when going about town or countryside, giving definition to the term "swash-buckler?" Anyone know?

[Geoff Freeman]

Also wondering if the Arms and Armor "Knightly sword" could be used as an early cut & thrust?

[G Clark]

Bucklers -

Carried by people who could not afford guantlets.

A&A's knightly sword -

sure it is a cut and thrust. looks like a Type XVIII to me. Don't know about 'early' though - cut and thrust swords have been around a couple of thousand years. There were cut and thrusts made of bronze, I think.

[Jörg B.]

Hi Geoff!

"Serving man" means a (common) man who does military service, plain and simple.

Cheers,
Jörg

[Keith Jennings]

Originally posted by Geoff Freeman
Also wondering if the Arms and Armor "Knightly sword" could be used as an early cut & thrust?

Hey Geoff, what do you mean by cut and thrust? From what master or text are you studying from?

That sword looks pretty sweet. From the looks of it, I'm sure that it could both cut and thrust very nicely.

[Stuart McDermid]

Originally posted by G Clark
Bucklers -
Carried by people who could not afford gauntlets.

Hi G,

What makes you think that being able to afford gauntlets had much to do with it. I am happy to wear a heavy blow on my buckler. I am not happy to wear the same blow on my gauntlets. Ouch!
Stu.

[Paul Wagner]

Just poinitng out "bucklers" - ie small to medium sized punch-grip shields - were common battlefield shields throughout the dark ages, particularly amongst cultures whose warriors relied on speed and mobility (eg the Welsh, Picts, Irish). It was also common for later medieval troops like archers to carry them as a secondary defence.

Paul

[Matt Easton]

I would say that just about any man could carry and did carry a buckler, given the appropriate circumstances. There are records of knights carrying bucklers, when un-armoured and travelling, of monks carrying bucklers, servants, working men and probably just about anyone you can think of.
The London Apprentices (young tradesmen) were famous in the Elizabethan period for their sword and buckler 'duels' (sporting challenges) in Smithfields in east London. It was during this period that the phrase 'swashbuckler' comes about - thought to be derived from young men who wore their bucklers hanging from their sword hilts, where they would 'swash' against them, making a characteristic sound in the streets.

Matt

[Peter Rostron]

Originally posted by Matt Easton
I would say that just about any man could carry and did carry a buckler, given the appropriate circumstances. There are records of knights carrying bucklers, when un-armoured and travelling, of monks carrying bucklers, servants, working men and probably just about anyone you can think of.
The London Apprentices (young tradesmen) were famous in the Elizabethan period for their sword and buckler 'duels' (sporting challenges) in Smithfields in east London. It was during this period that the phrase 'swashbuckler' comes about - thought to be derived from young men who wore their bucklers hanging from their sword hilts, where they would 'swash' against them, making a characteristic sound in the streets.

Matt

Actually I seem to recall that the term 'Swashbuckler' was more a description of the way that these young chappies fought, arising out of their predeliction for the use of Sword and Buckler with the 'Swashing' blow (a cut).

Vale,

Peter

[Terry Brown]

Originally posted by Peter Rostron


Actually I seem to recall that the term 'Swashbuckler' was more a description of the way that these young chappies fought, arising out of their predeliction for the use of Sword and Buckler with the 'Swashing' blow (a cut).

Vale,

Peter

Hi Peter,
Might well be right in one sense because the term swashbucklers arose rom the fact that gangs of what we would call yobbos or thugs roamed the streets challenging passers-by to fights.. They were renowned - if that is the correct term - for swashing their swords against their own bucklers whilst parading the streets. The term swash means 'blow' and was also used to describe beating a drum, ie 'a swash beat on the drum'. Obviously this could also by definition, be used to describe a blow on an opponents buckler, though the above use, to the best of my knowledge, is how the term originated.
Best wishes
Terry Brown

[Jay Barron]

Can someone post a list of websites of companies that sell good quality bucklers?

[John Maddox Roberts]

The use of the buckler, like most fashions, moved downward through society. When gentlemen took up the rapier, commoners and servants retained the buckler. In England, all free men could bear arms, including servants. Read Act One of Romeo and Juliet. It begins with a brawl between the servants of the houses of Montague and Capulet, using swords (one servant shouts "remember thy swashing blow!) Tybalt, on the other hand, calls, "My rapier, varlet!" He's a fashionable gentleman using the latest weapon. Shakespeare, of course, was picturing 14th-century Italy as Elizabethan England. Later, at least one fencing manual describes the sword and buckler as "clownish, servingmen's weapons." Sort of the way the tux, once a gentleman's evening wear, is now worn by headwaiters.

[Matt Easton]

Originally posted by John Maddox Roberts
In England, all free men could bear arms, including servants

But I believe the wearing of anything bigger than a knife was made illegal at various times in various cities of England.
However, it was probably still done (and was expected by Eliazabeth's reign)- there were repeated edicts against the holding of fencing schools in medieval London, which in itself shows that people were ignoring the previous ruling.... It was pretty commonplace to ignore laws such as this in the medieval period I think, especially when the main perpetrators were probably the Nobility and Gentry anyway.
After Henry VIII's time it was a different kettle of fish though.

Matt

[John Maddox Roberts]

Somewhere in Stuart times there was a crackdown, and by the 18th century, only "gentlemen" could wear swords openly, in Continental fashion. And by then, the pistol had made the sword largely obsolete off the battlefield. It even came to dominate duelling. The buckler survived in stage prize-fighting, though, along with the quarterstaff and other old-fashioned weaponry, until the rage for pugilism drove them from the stage.

[Paul Wagner]

An answer to the original question - yes knights used them!

In the Prologue to Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales the Knight is described with;

"Upon his arm he baar a gay bracer,
And by his syde a swerd and a bokeler" (111-112)

…while the ignoble Miller;

"His nosethirles blake were and wyde.
A swerd and bokeler bar he by his syde" (557-8)

Ta-dum!

Paul

[John Maddox Roberts]

Paul:
That first description is the yeoman (archer), hence the bracer.

[Paul Wagner]

bugger, so it is. Damn....

[Felix Wang]

Originally posted by Jay Barron
Can someone post a list of websites of companies that sell good quality bucklers?

Not a list, but maybe the start of one: Arms and Armor sells bucklers, and of course their quality control is excellent.
Patrice Lemee made me a very nice buckler, reasonably priced. ( http://www.armurerieduroi.com/ ).

Anyone else?

[Stephen A. Fisher]

Originally posted by Jay Barron
Can someone post a list of websites of companies that sell good quality bucklers?

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/armor.html

http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-...650.storefront

http://www.phoenixmetalcreations.com/accessories.html

[Jay Barron]

Thanks for the links. Interestingly enough, I find the Museum Replicas buckler to be the most attractive.

[Matt Easton]

Originally posted by Paul Wagner
An answer to the original question - yes knights used them!

Although it's important to note clearly for those who may not realise, that Chaucer's knight was not equipped in the manner of a knights at war, but as a traveller. It was as a traveller that he carried the sword and buckler. No doubt he would have carried a shield when wearing armour for war (or at that date maybe no form of shield at all).

Editted after reading thread: Ok, so he din't have a buckler - but the point remains the same, because there is evidence (art) of men of standing wearing the buckler, but not in war as far as I know.

Matt

[Bill Grandy]

Originally posted by Jay Barron
Thanks for the links. Interestingly enough, I find the Museum Replicas buckler to be the most attractive.

Don't forget Purpleheart Armory, they have two. The leather one is a little on the pricey side, but is absolutely fantastic. Very solid, and very light. I wouldn't have been too sure about it had I not seen one in person.

Jay,
Just to let you know: I own the Museum Replicas buckler, and it's okay, but in the long run I'd go with something better. The boss is held on with bolts, and the first time I used it against shinai, a bolt stripped and flew out. Easy to replace, but I wasn't the only one out of my group to have the same experience. Within the first couple of sessions of using these, couple others had the same things happen. They also bang up fairly easy, and against shinai, even modified ones, that's not very encouraging, IMO.

[Jay Barron]

Originally posted by Bill Grandy

Jay,
Just to let you know: I own the Museum Replicas buckler, and it's okay, but in the long run I'd go with something better. The boss is held on with bolts, and the first time I used it against shinai, a bolt stripped and flew out. Easy to replace, but I wasn't the only one out of my group to have the same experience. Within the first couple of sessions of using these, couple others had the same things happen. They also bang up fairly easy, and against shinai, even modified ones, that's not very encouraging, IMO.

I have to admit I never have felt confident about ordering from MRL. There are too many questionable products in their catalogue. Thanks for the heads up. I'll check out Purpleheart.

[Kel Rekuta]

Originally posted by Jay Barron


I have to admit I never have felt confident about ordering from MRL. There are too many questionable products in their catalogue. Thanks for the heads up. I'll check out Purpleheart.

I've used the leather buckler from Christian. It is not that much lighter than a steel buckler of similar size. It is quite bulky and I would not enjoy wearing it on my belt all day.

That said, it performs well against wooden wasters. If you opt for a leather buckler, get two. Steel bucklers chew up leather ones badly.

Once we get comfortable with the system, I know we will move to steel bucklers and swords. For now we will continue with wooden wasters against wooden or leather bucklers.

[Jörg B.]

Jay, making a good wooden buckler is easy enough,
why don't you try it yourself?

All you need is a shield boss large enough to accomodate your hand, a piece of plywood (12"*12" wide, 5/8" thick) for the shield face, a strip of rawhide for the edging, a hammer handle for the grip, some short nails, glue and a few basic tools.

Anyone who's coordinated enough to tie his shoes should be able to make a buckler. It should be cheaper than buying any commercially made model and it's fun to make.

Plus, a wooden buckler with a rawhide rim holds up well against wood *and* steel weapons, while you cannot really use a steel buckler against wooden weapons, unless you want to buy a new waster every week.

Cheers,
Jörg