Arms and Armour of Turkish, Albanian, Balkan design?

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Thankyou yet again, for your dedication to the spreading of knowledge to others!

I'm afraid I don't know what a Wallachian caftan was, however the qaftan was a common item of clothing in the Ottoman empire from the 15th to the late 19th century. It usually took the form of a long-sleeved 'double-breasted' robe which reached down to the knees or ankles. It was worn by military men and civilians alike. It was common practice in Islamic countries to wear clothing over armour, especially if the armour was rather plain, mail shirts for example.

I'm pretty sure it would be the description that you are referring to, but then what would be worn underneath the armour?

The Ottomans and Mamluks also used a padded garment lined with mail called a kazaghand. There is also some evidence that the Mamluks used velvet covered brigandines. The Mamluks had strong trading links with Venice, so they may have used imported Venetian brigandines. Fabric covered 'coats-of-plates' were also used in Central Asia in the late 14th century.

Was this kazaghand worn underneath the armour? Also, what is the difference between brigadine's and 'coat-of-plates'?

As far as I know the Ottomans didn't distinguish between yushman, bekhterets and kolontar styles armours, all were lumped together under the generic terms cevşen (jawshan) and zirh gömlek. AFAIK krug-type armours were called zirh göğüslük in Turkish.

One question I may of already asked is what time period was krug armour starting to be used. And just as you show, with the term jawshan being used for all types of armour including lamellar armour, their was no need to categoize as we have the need to today. I look forward to talking to you, and hope a good day! Cheers!

Just to confuse you further, up until the late 14th century, lamellar armour was also called jawshan.

Confusing no, debilitating to try and go any further and learn the names of each different type of Turco-Mongol, Central Asian armour!!!

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[H. Gaballa]

Some form of padded arming garment was worn under mail shirts, I don't know what it was called.

The kazaghand wasn't worn under the armour, it was the armour! There is an excellent description of the construction of a kazaghand in the "Memoirs of Usamah ibn-Munqidh" (translated by Philip K. Hitti). Armour of this type had been used throughout the Middle East since the 12th century AD.

This is a late 15th century Ottoman kazaghand. It looks like a jacket, but under the silk outer layer is a layer of padding, and under that there is a mail shirt.



The Krug was used in the Ottoman Empire from circa 1475 AD to 1650 AD. I already answered this question on 26 October 2006 at 07:31 PM.

I'm sure the difference between the coat-of-plates and the brigandine has been discussed already on the Antique Arms & Armour sub-forum. Try a search and see what comes up.

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply.

The kazaghand wasn't worn under the armour, it was the armour! There is an excellent description of the construction of a kazaghand in the "Memoirs of Usamah ibn-Munqidh" (translated by Philip K. Hitti). Armour of this type had been used throughout the Middle East since the 12th century AD.

This is a late 15th century Ottoman kazaghand. It looks like a jacket, but under the silk outer layer is a layer of padding, and under that there is a mail shirt.

Yes, thankyou for the explanation. Edit: Would you be able to show me this paragraph describing the process of manufacturing please!

The Krug was used in the Ottoman Empire from circa 1475 AD to 1650 AD. I already answered this question on 26 October 2006 at 07:31 PM.

Yes, thankyou for answering that for me, I should of checked, my apologies.

I sure the difference between the coat-of-plates and the brigandine has been discussed already on the Antique Arms & Armour sub-forum. Try a search and see what comes up.

I shall definately do that, thankyou very much! If I can find any more question that I can think of, I shall definately ask! Cheers!

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[H. Gaballa]

Originally Posted by Barrett Hiebert

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply.



Yes, thankyou for the explanation. Edit: Would you be able to show me this paragraph describing the process of manufacturing please!...

Barrett Michael Hiebert

Sorry Barrett I missed that query. I'm afraid I was too lazy to copy out the passage, so I scanned it instead. Click on the thumbnails please.

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post. Lazy is okay! Thanks so much for the passage, quite (inciteful sp?)! Have a good day! Cheers!

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[H. Gaballa]

Just to add something I had completely forgotten about.

One of the Farsi names for mail-and-plate armour is zereh baktar, sometimes spelt zirah bakhtar (Manouchehr is the man you need to speak to for the correct pronounciation and transliteration). The name looks quite similar to the Russian bekhterets. I think this is unlikely to be a coincidence.

[Shayan Q.]

zereh means armor in Persian, but since I'm not overly familiar with Farsi words for armor I can only hazard a guess at the second word. Perhaps it is "baakhtar," meaning "West?" Zereh-ye baakhtari would mean "Western Armor." Other than that all I can think of is bakhtiaar, meaning lucky, which wouldn't make much sense. Hopefully our oft-consulted moderator will comment!

Note: in the words above, one "a" sounds like the A in "cat," two in a row like the A in "pawn."

[Manouchehr M.]

Hisham,

Thank you very much for your input and thanks Shayan for the transaltion. Bakhtari indeed means western. Zereh is the general term for armor in Persian. Hisham could you please specify where you found this collocation? I mean in which historical manual? Thanks.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

[H. Gaballa]

Originally Posted by Manouchehr M.

Hisham,

Thank you very much for your input and thanks Shayan for the transaltion. Bakhtari indeed means western. Zereh is the general term for armor in Persian. Hisham could you please specify where you found this collocation? I mean in which historical manual? Thanks.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

Hi Manouchehr,

I've come across the phrase zereh-baktar (or zirah bagtar) a few times. However when i went and checked, it is almost always in an Indian context.

This reference is from the Glossary of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood:
"Zira baktar/bagtar Coat of mail and scale armour reaching to the knees."

H. Russell Robinson (1967) Oriental Armour, chapter 5:
"...They include many coats resembling those described above, such as Zirah baktar. Fifteen rows plain narrow scales with chain skirt, Worn by officers of high rank."

Anthony C. Tirri (2003) Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul, p. 223.
"The earliest surviving form of Persian armour is a form of combined mail and steel plates called joshan or zirah baktar. Armour utilising only mail was called zereh or zirah."

I also found this:
http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsit...sectionId=2023

And a google search found this, which made me laugh.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...oto=nextnewest

What a short memory I have.

The same Google search also found this:
http://www.babylon.com/definition/ARMOUR/Farsi

So I'm now guessing that the term zirah baktar might be Urdu, rather than Farsi.

All the best,

Hisham

[Shayan Q.]

Hisham, a massive chunk of the Urdu language is derived from Persian, as it has historically been a region of much cultural and political interaction. Farsi-speaking forces invaded and conquered that geographical area many times, not to speak of the more peaceful constant economic exchanges. Sometimes my father and I watch Pakistani news to see how many Persian-borrowed phrases we can understand in it.

"Urdū (اردو) is an Indo-Aryan language of the Indo-Iranian branch, belonging to Indo-European family of languages. It is an Apabhramsha that developed under Persian and Arabic, to some lesser degree also under Turkic influence in South Asia during the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal Empire (1200–1800 CE)."

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Thankyou H. Gaballa for remebering such a thing, and thankyou Shayan Q., and Manouchehr M., for extending on the subject, very interesting! Have a good night! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert