Dueling Scars....

[louie pastore]

Found this photo on Flickr -


"My grandfather, bloodied, at his initiation into a German dueling fraternity. The scar on the cheek (called a "Schmiß") lasted his lifetime".

There's also a very good article on the practice as it's performed today
http://www.jonathan-green.com/articl...report_a03.htm

And there's Corps Teutonia, a male student organization founded during the 19th century, is a fraternity in Berlin, Germany, that today has over 170 members.

- "Today, Corps students still carry on this old tradition of dueling. One major difference is that duels are no longer used as a way to settle disputes or arguments. Corps duel to teach self-discipline and to bring Corps members closer together. Each member of Corps Teutonia must duel four times to become a life long member. When one duels his opponent stands a swords length away, each have their feet firmly planted on the floor. When the command is given to duel each can only move his arm and wrist. Today a duel is much safer than it was in the past. One might leave a duel with a few stitches, but a duel is not at all lifethreatening. Eyes, nose, ear, neck and body protection is mandatory".

http://www.corps-teutonia.de/index.p...d=57&Itemid=57

Anyone tried this out in one of the Fraternities?

Louie

[Steven Reich]

It isn't quite as easy as showing up and saying that you want to join. However, Christopher Amberger has participated in a few mensur duels and he describes one in his book The Secret History of the Sword: Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts

Steve

[Richard D Herron]

Holy Crud! What’d this character do, defeat his opponent by bleeding all over him?

Dueling scars, forsooth! I have always felt that the more impressive swordsman would be the one who fought many duels and remained unscarred. I’ve read that especially during its height of popularity in the 19th century, many dueling scars were self-inflicted. Ah, Testosterone; how we males have squandered Thee over the centuries.

As Hugh Knight has mentioned elsewhere, the attending surgeons seen here bring to mind how many of their kind over the centuries have made a fairly healthy supplemental income patching up the students of the various fencing schools around Europe.

What a wonderful photo, indeed. Thanks for posting it.

Richard

[Sean Hayes]

Originally Posted by Richard D Herron

Holy Crud! What’d this character do, defeat his opponent by bleeding all over him?

You should read Amberger's essay of his experiences in the mensur in Secret History of the Sword. This isn't a street fight or duel to the death: it's a test of character, a rite of passage between men who regard themselves in some sense as brothers.

I confess it ain't my cup of tea, exactly, but I do understand and respect the participants, situation and motivations, at least to the extent that any outsider can.

Sean

[J.B. Angiulo]

It actually bears a strong resemblance in motivations to later forms of dueling in Europe, at least according to my reading. That is, the real "point" of issuing or accepting a challenge wasn't to exterminate the opponent so much as to demonstrate a willingness to risk physical harm for abstract concepts. Witness the many duels that were terminated (honorably, for both parties) when both parties intentionally fired wide; the act of showing up at the dueling ground was the important part, and integral to the maintenance of honor, rather than the destruction of the opponent.

Back to the mensur, Amberger seems to be the only English-language source of any real depth on the subject. I've seen video footage of German fraternity members training, and despite the dismissive attitude of most modern fencers (and, I suppose, historical fencers as well), those guys aren't the bunch of drunken maniacs they're made out to be. They train long and hard before fighting their first duel, and the rigid rules of the game are quite challenging. Those schlagers move fast, too, and the exchanges are very brief. Its an extremely "sportized" form of fencing, certainly, and highly abstracted, but as Amberger emphasizes, its the only form of Western fencing with real physical risk as an integral component (though I think he somewhat over-emphasizes the risks in making his point; all modern participants are aware that they won't actually be killed or seriously injured).

In any event, I'm very glad that it isn't done around here. I'd be just immature enough to say "what the heck, its just a flesh wound," and those scars do have a certain rakish charm about them. I have heard dim rumors of certain Midwestern cities, with large well-established German communities,where "social clubs" meet late at night and mensuren are fought. In fact, a gentleman of my acquaintance, here in California, is missing the top of one ear as the result of just such an encounter. He doesn't like to talk about it, unfortunately...

[George Davidson]

I remember Royal Flash (a Flashman story) and his receiving scars in this way 20 yrs ago. I thought it a bit much till I read about how that was a recognized way to prove your manhood in the 1800's. Disturbingly in germany TODAY its recognized as being a bit hard!

[louie pastore]

There's a dramatised mensur in this early 1920-30's? German film on youtube which has the period equipment & clothing... and a few scarred actors!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSyEwZ7Zg5c

Louie

[J.B. Angiulo]

Check out photos of the Imperial German staff officer corps during the Great War. Apparently in that Junker culture, a schmiss was something like a dark blue business suit/red necktie in the modern US: good luck trying to be really successful without one!

[David A Teague]

Hello All

I've got a 20 stitch scar on my face from fencing a moron at
a renfair without a mask (Hey, I was a MORON too!) 5 years ago.

The sucker stabbed me in the face when all we were suposed to be doing was cuts to the body.

For those of you who really want to know:




It's overrated.



Only Freaky Chicks dig scars.



The Glory doens't last forever.



I'd rather had a beer with my old Fraternity brothers than this.



I would rather have spent the $1000. doctor fee on somthing from Albion Arms.


Cheers,

[William Carew]

Even minor head (scalp and face) wounds tend to bleed profusely and the apparent amount of blood involved can make the injuries appear more serious than they often are (especially when blood covers the face and soaks clothes, bandages etc red). Isn't it amazing how much a shaving cut bleeds. I know my first bleeding head wound as a kid freaked my mum out quite a bit!

The question of the (in)sanity or otherwise of the mensur itself, and willingly inviting a face wound is another matter entirely!

Cheers,

Bill

[Ken McKenzie]

Based on my limited reading of the subject and a few conversations I've had with German friends I gather that scars are half the point in a mensur. I don't think they go to plastic surgeons afterward to try and hide them or anything like that.

I recall reading in Richard Cohen's book 'by the sword' that no one has died in schlager fencing since back in the 20's, so I think the risk of death is pretty small.

Personaly I am intrigued by the concept, besides my face never was that pretty ... though I may well revise that opinion if ever confronted with sharp steel

[George Davidson]

may not mean much to american readers but the first time that eric morcambe (legendary uk comedian) met jasper carrott (english comedian from birmingham with a bad scar on his face), all he said was 'Heidelberg?'

jasper as he was - note scar

[Jörg B.]

Originally Posted by Ken McKenzie

Based on my limited reading of the subject and a few conversations I've had with German friends I gather that scars are half the point in a mensur.

Nowadays, the scar is not even half the point in a mensur.
If it happens, well, then it happens, but no one indends to have his facial features permanently altered today (at least this holds true for the people I know).

[Joachim Adomeit]

A lot of those fraternities are on the watchlist of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution because most of them are extremist right wing. Fraternities that still practice mensur are not mainstream in Germany and are often viewed as very immature. The scar surely doesn´t go well with "normal girls", but their fraternities will also try to care for them and make sure they get a "good german girl" that knows how to respect her husband and has the correct political ideas.

I despise the lot for their standards of morale which are directly from the 1940s and their political views. I would express it with more unfriendly words but i can´t due to forum guidelines.

[Jörg B.]

Joachim,

that's quite a lot of rubbish.

Fraternities are conservative, yes; some *very* conservative yes; some a bit nationalistic, yes again.

But extremist right-wing?

During the Nazi regime, all fraternities were forbidden, so much for that. While some individual member might harbor such thoughts, the fraternities as a whole don't.

And btw, you know which colors were adopted to be the colors of the 'Urburschenschaft' which were in turn based on the uniforms of the "Lützowsches Freikorps" (many of its members were students) ?

A hint if you don't know it: Look at our national flag.

[David Britten]

Originally Posted by Joachim Adomeit

A lot of those fraternities are on the watchlist of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution because most of them are extremist right wing. Fraternities that still practice mensur are not mainstream in Germany and are often viewed as very immature. The scar surely doesn´t go well with "normal girls", but their fraternities will also try to care for them and make sure they get a "good german girl" that knows how to respect her husband and has the correct political ideas.

I despise the lot for their standards of morale which are directly from the 1940s and their political views. I would express it with more unfriendly words but i can´t due to forum guidelines.

I really don't think you know what you are talking about. You cannot equate these school with hilter, they pre-date national socialism by a loooooooong way. Germany like most countries in Europe has long aristocratic martial traditions. You are viewing the past through a modern lense and equating history with modern politics which is why you are coming to the wrong conclusion.
I personally don't see the difference between this and tattoos in modern society. They are about nailing your colours to the mast. There are plenty EMA guys with kanji pasted all over themselves, nobody bats an eye lid at that.

Dave.

[Travis Canaday]

Originally Posted by David A Teague

Only Freaky Chicks dig scars.

Sounds good!

Originally Posted by David A Teague

The Glory doens't last forever.

It never does...

Originally Posted by David A Teague

I'd rather had a beer with my old Fraternity brothers than this.

Why not do both?

Originally Posted by David A Teague

I would rather have spent the $1000. doctor fee on somthing from Albion Arms.

Do they have to pay for stitches over there?

[David A Teague]

Originally Posted by Travis Canaday

Do they have to pay for stitches over there?

Unless the whole mensur mindset has changed in the last few years, the cut is stitched on site by a fellow Fraternity brother without any pain relief.

So no, the stitches are "free".

(You know, there was a TV program on this a few years ago... History channel or it's ilk... they interviewed one of the older Fraternity brothers who was very proud of his scar. The guy was disfigued by it. His lip was twisted up on one side and the scar ran from his mouth to his ear. They even showed a current mensur duel being fought.

Am I the only one here that saw this?)

Cheers,

David

P.S. Travis, I said "Freaky Chicks", not "Dirty Girls" Big diff.

[George Davidson]

Only Freaky Chicks dig scars.

Thats all I seem to attract so could be a win-win situation!

[Tony Wolf]

[QUOTE=Ken McKenzie;978328]Based on my limited reading of the subject and a few conversations I've had with German friends I gather that scars are half the point in a mensur. I don't think they go to plastic surgeons afterward to try and hide them or anything like that.
QUOTE]

During the 1800s, at least, the scars were an important outcome of the ritual (I assume that this was a case-by-case thing, in practice). One trick was to pull out the stitches and wash the wound with wine, apparently to fashion a more livid, obvious facial scar.

Tony

[louie pastore]

I believe the bloodied student in the first post was Jewish -


here's the rest of the text that accompanies the photo;

"German dueling fraternities in the 1920s were renowned forbeing nationalistic and right-wing and, I assume, also anti-Semitic. I don't know whether my father was allowed to join one of those or whether he joined some alternative Jewish dueling fraternity at that time at Munich University.

Anyway, in his younger days, my father was quite a German nationalist - participating on the German side when therewere clashes with Polish partisans in his hometown justafter World War I. It was this early activity which the Nazis were aware of, so that they left him alone longer than other Jews in Hannover at that time. By February of 1940, just in the nick of time, he got out of Germany via Holland. By May of that year, Germany occupied Holland.

Anyway, a dueling scar was always considered in Germany as the mark of the educated elite"

Louie

[louie pastore]

Here are a few more Flickr photos which show the 'safety equipment' worn for the Mensur...


From 1957

These others are late 19thC....





A quick stitch-up...



Louie

[louie pastore]

The Mensur Babe Magnets



or in the style of the old UK aftershave advert -
"Just slash it all over!"

Louie

[George Davidson]

love the cheek patches!

[Alex Kiermayer]

Originally Posted by Joachim Adomeit

A lot of those fraternities are on the watchlist of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution because most of them are extremist right wing. Fraternities that still practice mensur are not mainstream in Germany and are often viewed as very immature. The scar surely doesn´t go well with "normal girls", but their fraternities will also try to care for them and make sure they get a "good german girl" that knows how to respect her husband and has the correct political ideas.

I despise the lot for their standards of morale which are directly from the 1940s and their political views. I would express it with more unfriendly words but i can´t due to forum guidelines.

Hmm... How many fraternaty members do you know? The ones that I know are quite open-minded and in now way right-winged. The fraternities I know accept foreign and colored people. Does this suit to the attitude you were speaking of? Yes, the fraternities do advocate conservative thoughts like working hard and taking care for the other members. Is this wrong? They also advocate partying and other activities.

To be fair there are fraternities that suit into the mindset you are describing. But the are the exception and not the norm.

If you wonder, no, I´m not a member of a fraternity.


Best regards,

Alex