Kunst Video

[Martin Janicina]

Dear all, here is some video from our training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKM_tXlYiag. Main stucks are mostly developed to further ones. Any comments are welcome.

[David Rawlings]

I liked that, thanks very much for sharing

[Michael Edelson]

I like it alot also. I don't agree with some of your interpretations, but I love your energy and precision. Very good work. Thank you for sharing.

[Andrew Shultz]

I like that it's not the standard. I definitely don't agree with some things, but there is enough that is different that I need to review more closely. Frankly I've seen enough of the standard motions.

I very much like the production - fast and then slow again is helpful to figure out the motions.

[Martin Janicina]

Thanks to all for the reply. Is it possible to write exactly which interpretations you mean (which you don´t agree with)? Thanks.

[William Carew]

Originally Posted by Martin Janicina

Thanks to all for the reply. Is it possible to write exactly which interpretations you mean (which you don´t agree with)? Thanks.

Good work Martin.

I like the speed and precision of the work. I really like the fact that you extend well in attack, and in the upper hangers (e.g. when striking a Zwerch or Winding up) your hands and hilt are nicely above your heads - too many people become lazy and hold Ochs or Zwerch with their hilt lower than their heads - nice to see more groups doing it otherwise!

Things that look odd to me and which I do differently:

- The hut with the sword almost horizontal. It's not quite vom Tag, not quite Zornhut... kinda inbetween. I'm not sure what to call it. I'd be curious as to your views on this hut and your inspiration for it.

- The footwork (and resulting measure) seems overly committed and quite linear (straight forward and back) to my eye. Fast, deep steps are good IMHO, but I aim for a smooth, flatter and more controlled method for stability on slippery surfaces.

- What happens at 3.02 to 3.10 to explain why the opponent drops their sword? General mishap (that happens to all of us) or part of the device as you interpret it? Curious.

Thanks for shooting the video and sharing it with us. It's nice to see different approaches to the art. I'm going to view it a few more times and think more about it. Does your group have a webpage or any other information about your training you can share?

I'm travelling through much of Central Europe, including Slovakia very soon. I can't wait to see Bratislava!

Cheers,

Bill

[Martin Janicina]

William:

- This stance is for me common stance where you are advised to hold your sword on your shoulder. I know that we see “shouldered” Vom Tag with the point straight up for example in Danzig or Kal. Those are just illustrations; they do not mention that you have to hold it 100% vertically. But if you want to cut from the shoulder effectively you need some power to be able to counter activity of the opponent (for example Zorn haw). If you cut from the shoulder it is more or less throw of the sword forward where will not have adequate power if you will not move your point bit behind (I don’t know English expression for the phase of the movement when the sword goes little bit backwards). Speyer says that you have to hold your sword above the head with the point little behind but here you are cutting, not “throwing” so the cut has a needed power. This is according to me a serious problem of many groups, that they do not execute their interpretations with the adequate power. Then they really never realize if their zorn against opponent’s one is really effective, or we se the biss stercker to the left what would never be possible if the opponent was really hart.
- Yes sometimes I see on the video too large misure too, I agree. About the linearity, I don’t know, I made my steps to the side. Maybe it is just not clear (or maybe I did not step to the side always) About the steps, masters adviced to jump to the side. For me this explosive step is more comfortable as I am faster and it gives strength to my action.
- No, that is not a mishap. It is a Schiller to hands according to Speyer. My opponent drops his sword for better understandability of what happened. That is also why he turned his head at 0:55.

Anyway thank you for your words, our web page is www.zoldnieri.sk but it is going to be changed (currently there is only a part about stage fencing). I’ll be glad to meet. When you travel to Slovakia will be actual send me a pm please. Bye.

[Paul Wagner]

Hi Martin,

First, good on you for posting the vid - that's exactly the sort of thing we need to see from as many groups as possible. Well done.

Now, the critique

While I think you're right about the need to generate power on the cuts, I think Bill is also right to question the stance you've got. For me, the obvious thing is the left arm and elbow is sticking way out in front as a very tempting target your opponent can hit very quickly, especially if he started a little closer.

As far as the linearity goes, you're both making your initial attacks off line just fine, the issue is actually that whoever ends up retreating is going straight back.

Just looking at the first sequence as an example: White passes forward-and right with the attack, Black passes forward-and-right with the counter, then White reverses all his momentum to go straight back again! Typically, White should have started his retreat bringing the left leg around behind the right in a "triangle step" and flown out at an angle. However, your super-low stance and very deep passing is affecting your balance and agility and thus your ability to do so.

If you watch the feet carefully you can see that, in this first example, White lands on his right foot with so much weight that his left foot actually slips (wearing sneakers too!), his entire body weight lands on his right knee, and his entire recovery is powered by springing back on the same knee. Trust me, you won't be able to do that when you're 50! You also won't be able to do that outside - the last vid we put up (Winterfest) was after 2 days of heavy rain, and the ground was hideously soft and slippery, and keeping the footwork conservative and balanced was the only way to avoid slipping over in the mud!

I also notice you both make little preparatory shuffles before you attack and, often, defend - again, you can see this in the first sequence from both of you. I assume this isn't deliberate, and you are simply subconciously needing to adjust your stance before you can move. Obviously, this is telegraphing and not desirable, and again I think it's a consequence of being too low with legs too far apart, which is preventing you from moving smoothly and quickly.

So, commitment and sinking your weight are both good things in moderation, but I think you might be overdoing them!! My advice is thus - stand up straighter and pull your elbow in!

Kind regards

Paul

[Martin Janicina]

Thank you for the comment Paul

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Well, the starting position looks similar to the one used by Kuroda sensei (here for example), so it should be workable and it does not seem particularly unsafe to me. The left arm sticking out can be a tempting target but both fighters are probably aware of that... And can play with it.

I do think the footwork could be better, more balanced perhaps, more economic... However I like the intent behind the footwork a lot, the fact that both fighters are moving and mostly that the defendant is not just rooted in place moving his sword. I'm not particularly into longsword but it makes me cringe everytime I see videos with one fighter rooted there after the initial attack and the other guy jumping around during 3-4 blade actions. Or even worse both fighters stuck in place after the initial exchange...

One thing that I would work on suppressing if I were you, is drawing back the forward foot first when making a pass. It diminishes your range and is a clear telegraphing. Generally I strive for the least number of foot motions, because each takes time and is a risk to trip

Good video, thanks for sharing!

[Michael Ulfric Douglas]

Originally Posted by Paul Wagner

...I also notice you both make little preparatory shuffles before you attack and, often, defend - again, you can see this in the first sequence from both of you. I assume this isn't deliberate, and you are simply subconciously needing to adjust your stance before you can move. Obviously, this is telegraphing and not desirable, and again I think it's a consequence of being too low with legs too far apart, which is preventing you from moving smoothly and quickly.

I disagree, in many sports a little shuffle adds to the ability to move fast from a standstill, it also delays the opponent's perception of the direction of attack. These guys have a great stance and good fast movement, I'm sure not going to advise them to change that and maybe bring them more in line with the sluggish movements seen from many other practitioners.

[Paul Wagner]

But it's not a sport, it's a martial art. The idea isn't to score points, but to survive. Any time you over-commit to a movement - particularly an attack, and even more particularly an attack directly forward, you are running an enormous risk, because if the attack fails, you'll be dead. That's precisely why the sort of footwork used in modern sports fencing - as fast as it is - is not appropriate, desirable, or historically accurate for historical rapier fencing.

If we just look at the first passing attack on the vid, the attacker is leaping in so deeply that, having had his attack thwarted, he's completely screwed. His rear foot is off the ground, his knee is having to absorb his whole body weight, his recovery is inevitably going to be slow, and he's unable to change direction as he retreats. Also, if he'd landed on a muddy patch, he'd have ended on his arse!

I'm not saying the whole video is like that, BTW - Black's attacks in the next 2 sequences are much better, as he's making his way into distance with a series of shorter, much more balanced passes and little provoking attacks - I like that a lot!

Paul

[D. Reagan]

Originally Posted by Paul Wagner

But it's not a sport, it's a martial art. The idea isn't to score points, but to survive. Any time you over-commit to a movement - particularly an attack, and even more particularly an attack directly forward, you are running an enormous risk, because if the attack fails, you'll be dead. That's precisely why the sort of footwork used in modern sports fencing - as fast as it is - is not appropriate, desirable, or historically accurate for historical rapier fencing.

If we just look at the first passing attack on the vid, the attacker is leaping in so deeply that, having had his attack thwarted, he's completely screwed. His rear foot is off the ground, his knee is having to absorb his whole body weight, his recovery is inevitably going to be slow, and he's unable to change direction as he retreats. Also, if he'd landed on a muddy patch, he'd have ended on his arse!

I'm not saying the whole video is like that, BTW - Black's attacks in the next 2 sequences are much better, as he's making his way into distance with a series of shorter, much more balanced passes and little provoking attacks - I like that a lot!

Paul

I don't disagree with your points, but it seems you two are making completely separate points. I agree with Michael's assertion that

Originally Posted by Michael Ulfric Douglas

...a little shuffle adds to the ability to move fast from a standstill, it also delays the opponent's perception of the direction of attack".

Which you don't seem to be addressing directly, as far as I can tell.

Dustin

[T. Stoeppler]

Originally Posted by Martin Janicina

If you cut from the shoulder it is more or less throw of the sword forward where will not have adequate power if you will not move your point bit behind (I don’t know English expression for the phase of the movement when the sword goes little bit backwards).

Hi Martin, looks like good practice to me!

Im just qouting your last comment, referring to the typical cocking back or loading motion prior to strikes. Even in the first exchance, both of you do a very visible loading move. I´d say eliminate this and you can fence fairly safely from a horizontal guard too.

Regards, Thomas

[Andrej Janičina]

Dear gentlemen,

I am the “white fencer” from the video. First of all thanks to everybody for the comments. Mostly they where connected to footwork. Therefore I am curious whether you have some hints and comments also to the sword techniques or interpretations.

Regards Andrej

[GregS]

First off, great video! There's some interpretation in there that I'm dying to try. Thanks for posting it!

Originally Posted by D. Reagan

I don't disagree with your points, but it seems you two are making completely separate points. I agree with Michael's assertion that



Which you don't seem to be addressing directly, as far as I can tell.

Dustin

True, shuffling can add speed for the motion that follows, but it also adds opportunity for your opponent. Too often, either because we are very familiar with our sparring partner or because we're doing ordered techniques, we forget that cues like that can be detremental in a real fight.

A shuffle step, by definition, is a restructuring of your stance. During that restructuring you are vulnerable. If you receive an attack during that time, especially one that changes lines, you have to reorder yourself in order to receive it (or, at the very least, dramatically change gears).

It also definitively alerts your opponent to your intent to act. And even if he doesn't know what you're about to do, he'll be completely warned that you're going to do something. At that point, even if he doesn't know what's coming, he can retreat and control the pacing of the fight or counter in single-time and still quite possibly get off the mark faster than you do.

Personally, I'll take a surprising and decisive action that is, say, 1/10th of a second slower to the risk that my enemy will be able to read me.

[Paul Wagner]

Yes, What Greg Said

In particular, you can see the "restructuring" of the stance before the first pass, where White re-angles his left foot to push off from for the pass.

Hi Andrej!

I don't want you to think anyone is picking on you, by the way, and we know it's only a demonstration video, not freeplay, and we're all glad you posted it

In regards to the techniques, they all look basically reasonable to me!

Paul

[Andrej Janičina]

Hi Paul,

I do not think that somebody is picking on us. I really appreciate the critique because it can move things forward.

Regards, Andrej

[D. Reagan]

Originally Posted by GregS

True, shuffling can add speed for the motion that follows, but it also adds opportunity for your opponent. Too often, either because we are very familiar with our sparring partner or because we're doing ordered techniques, we forget that cues like that can be detremental in a real fight.

...

It also definitively alerts your opponent to your intent to act. And even if he doesn't know what you're about to do, he'll be completely warned that you're going to do something. At that point, even if he doesn't know what's coming, he can retreat and control the pacing of the fight or counter in single-time and still quite possibly get off the mark faster than you do.

Personally, I'll take a surprising and decisive action that is, say, 1/10th of a second slower to the risk that my enemy will be able to read me.

What you say is not wrong, but a feint with the blade suffers exactly the same disadvantages you just enumerated above. Obviously, you should not feint at every opportunity, but there are (many) perfectly good times to use a feint. This sort of preparatory shuffle has the same set of advantages and disadvantages as a feint with the blade and should be treated as such.

Dustin

[Jeff Richardson]

Most of the stuff I see has been covered already. But regarding footwork... I have no problem with the deep stance. You can move very efficiently if done from here. However I do see the rear foot sliding problem in the stance of the white fighter on the right, especially in the advance. This is a product of a long step forward. This works on a flat slick surface, but not on uneven ground. Watch and you will also notice a tendency of the back foot to roll up on the inside edge of the foot.

If you step deep enough that the back leg is over extended then the foot needs to come up off the ground and move forward slightly to eliminate this problem. There is nothing wrong with shuffling the back foot forward in a long step, but don't let it slide across the ground.

Not really a German longsword guy... so no comments on the interpretation. But it all looks reasonable.

[David Rawlings]

Originally Posted by Andrej Janičina

Dear gentlemen,
Therefore I am curious whether you have some hints and comments also to the sword techniques or interpretations.

Yes, I would with all respect like to say, that they are very well done.
Rare I see a clip that makes me refine a technique, this clip has.

I don't have a problem with the low stance as you seem perfectly capable of moving several ways with it. Good job

[GregS]

Originally Posted by Andrej Janičina

Therefore I am curious whether you have some hints and comments also to the sword techniques or interpretations.

Regards Andrej

Truthfully, Andrej, you guys look darn good. You have nice intent and an obvious grasp of the material.

Good enough, in fact, that I, personally, only have abstract thoughts and nitpicks, and those may be accounted for in camera angle and/or because of the fact that this is a demonstration.

I would encourage you guys to make sure that you are practicing at "fight speed" and not "kata speed" (meaning you are actually able to internally process your actions rather than just perform them from choreographed memory). I would also encourage you to make sure that your targeting is solid (that each strike, even if it's a setup for a follow-up attack, is properly aimed) and that your parries extend out far enough to ensure coverage of the threatened limb...but, again, you may be doing all of that and the camera just doesn't show it.

As for your interpretations, I have very little to say contrarily and nothing so positively that I want to venture it off this video.

Again, very nice work!

Now, back on to footwork...

Originally Posted by D. Reagan

What you say is not wrong, but a feint with the blade suffers exactly the same disadvantages you just enumerated above. Obviously, you should not feint at every opportunity, but there are (many) perfectly good times to use a feint. This sort of preparatory shuffle has the same set of advantages and disadvantages as a feint with the blade and should be treated as such.

Dustin

I agree entirely, Dustin. Shuffles (and its big brother, the stomp), have lots and lots of applications. But, from this video I feel fairly certain that it is a chronic habit, especially for black, and is something I would suggest they work on curbing.

[Anton Kohutovič]

I have another training video of an another Slovak group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPIAUrHaLuA
It's not my group but they visited a couple of our trainings.

[Paul Wagner]

That one was really good! Thanks for posting!

Paul

[Anton Kohutovič]

The same group like in my previous video post. Some other techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xA7SMEiI4