Liberi's Boar's Tooth for Pollaxe

[CHarvey]

Quick question, in his earliest treatise Leberi makes reference to a guard for the pollaxe which is similar to the longsword guard bearing the same name, Boar's Tooth. Yet in a later treatise and also at a different point in the same treatise Liberi makes reference to what appears to be the same guard for the pollaxe, yet notes it as Middle Iron Door. My question then, is there any difference between the pollaxe guards of Boar's Tooth and Middle Iron Door? Liberi illustrates these guards in the same manner (see pics below) so if the chambering of one would be the difference, I can not tell. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[CHarvey]

Going along with the above sketches, here si another one for you guys. To help out, below is a sketch in Flos Duellatorum of the technique(s) in question being used.

[James Roberts]

I would say there is a fair amount of difference between the two guards. The middle iron door has the front hand reversed on the poll axe, and I believe the the axe is actually tucked under the arm. It is a very strong blocking position, and quite effective if you are attempting to close the range on your opponent. The Boar's Tooth is a proactive stance: it can block but it primarily offers you a position to thrust from. The hand positioning supports this argument, as they are free to move along the shaft to extend the thrust. Same as the longsword position, and if the next picture was found, the knight on the left who has just blocked the blow will raise his weapon and thrust on line. My take: any comments?

James

[James Roberts]

I lied: the front hand is not reversed. Major point is that the middle iron door has the axe braced under the arm.

[Bob Charron]

The first illustration you show is from the Getty-Ludwig manuscript, which according to dating of armour, hand, etc., is probably the earlier treatise.

The second illustration you show is from the now lost Pissani-Dossi, glossed by Francesco Novati, and is probably of a later date (approximately 30 years later).

It is possible that both are labelled correctly. The porta di ferro is used in a certain way. It stands in the center line of the body and lifts through the oncoming downard attack to displace it. Notice that for added leverage the user has cradled the haft of the pollaxe under his arm.

The boar's tooth can also do this displacement, but tends to be strong at thrusting from underneath, which the second illustration is set up to do, and from a stronger position for that activity than the first illustration.

I hope that helps.

[CHarvey]

Thanks for your comments guys.
So the difference is bracing under the arm here. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Bob Charron]

Originally posted by CHarvey
Thanks for your comments guys.
So the difference is bracing under the arm here. Thanks for clearing that up.

Actually, what you have mentioned is not the functional difference. Allow me to try to explain better.

Bracing the haft under the arm is a manifestation of what you need to do in order to more efficiently use the posta for what it is intended to do.

The major difference is in aspects of how the posta functions.

Boar's tooth is primarily good at thrusting, and secondarily good at displacing upwards. It positions the weapon to the left of the body. Keeping the left hand on the haft rather than cradling the haft under the arm allows longer and better targetted thrusting.

Iron Gate is primarily good at displacing upwards, and secondarily good for thrusting. It positions the weapon more in the center line of the body. It's just in this case the weapon is long and the haft has to go somewhere. Cradling it under the arm changes the center of rotation (like choking up on a bat) making it's upward diplacement easier and quicker to do.

I hope that clarifies it a little more.

[CHarvey]

Oh, thats even better. Thanks for yourt help in clarifying that Bob! So the guards are differentmainly in respect to function (thrust vs. displacing upwards) rathar than from form form, got'cha! Makes sense now I think about it...Thanks again anyways!

[Keith Jennings]

Hey Chris, just think about the Longsword guards you learned in class, the middle iron door and the boor's tooth, and how they differ. Then look at Fiore's pollaxe guards. They are pretty much the same thing.

BTW, check your PM.

[Matt Easton]

Porta di Ferro Mezzana gives a sottani blow (displacement) or a straight thrust, while Denti di Cinghiale gives a thrust upwards and fendente down.

I am currently going through some revision of the dating matter.

All the posta are of course related, and in Getty there is mention of both the porta di ferro mezzana and the denti di cinghiale in the poleaxe section. In fact the porta di ferro mezzana is suggested as the counter counter to the play against it; I believe because it can cover better against the suggested counter.

Matt