Chinese Saber (Dao) History

[Ricardo Guerreiro]

I recall reading somewhere that untill the Song Dinasty (960-1279 a.d.) the Chinese had no saber, only Jian. It stated also that Dao is a major Mongol influence, and that only after Mongol invasion did the saber become a popular weapon to Chinese. Is this true? If not, where and when did the chinese saber tradition begin?

Thanks.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Ricardo Guerreiro
I recall reading somewhere that untill the Song Dinasty (960-1279 a.d.) the Chinese had no saber...

No way, they've had single edged swords since the bronze age...

[David Black Mastro]

I would have to second Scott on this one.

David Nicolle wrote in Attilla and the Nomad Hordes that the curved saber may have existed as early as 5th century AD/CE. While the Mongols used such sabers later, their Hun ancestors actually made use of the straight, double-edged swords that were also used by the Sassanians.

Certainly there was a lot of steppe influence on Chinese weapons and martial arts (bows, swords, wrestling)--but it clearly went both ways (note how the Mongols took major advantage of Chinese siegecraft, for example).

[Doug Mullane]

Ricardo,

Something else to think about is what you mean by saber or dao. Apart from single-edged "swords," their shapes are different too. There are straighter and more curved daos that are considered under the category of "dao." The distinction between "dao" and "jian" may seem more complicated in this respect.

Check out the various threads here to check out the different types of "knives" and "swords" that fall uder the categories of "dao" and "jian."

Good luck,

Doug M

[Ricardo Guerreiro]

RE: Something else to think about is what you mean by saber or dao. Apart from single-edged "swords," their shapes are different too.

Hi Doug and Scott, thanks for your replies.
Doug, I am writing a small article for a newsletter about Taiji Saber. So I just wanted to first introduce a little history of the Saber (Dao) in China from its appearence in Chinese history to the main styles in the late Qing dinasty. By Dao I was referring to a single edged sword no matter what style or shape. I just wanted to know how far away in the time line a single edged sword appeared in China. Then, for styles and shapes I will only talk about in the late Qing and I will restrict my self to thos I think are the main 3, the Goose Feather, The Willow Leaf and the Ox Tail. Do you agree on these 3 beeing the most common in the late Qing?

Thanks a lot.

[Thomas Liang]

During the Han Dynasty there were straight singled-edged swords
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo.html

Tang Dynasty daos
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html
http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/custom2.html

Song Dynasty Zhanmadao
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html

Thomas Chen's websited has some nice pictures of daos and jians. It's too bad there aren't more swords that date back to the Song Dynasty, or older, in existance.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Originally posted by Ricardo Guerreiro ...I think are the main 3, the Goose Feather, The Willow Leaf and the Ox Tail. Do you agree on these 3 beeing the most common in the late Qing?

Yes, these are almost all you ever see with the occastional piandao, slicing saber, shuangshoudao, two handed saber or zhibeidao, straight backedd saber, poping up.

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you're ready to write a history of Chinese dao types. There's lots of reading & research that goes into even a brief survey of 2000+ years of sword history. Perhaps just a survey of common types of dao during the Qing would sufice?

[Ricardo Guerreiro]

RE: No offense, but it doesn't sound like you're ready to write a history of Chinese dao types.


You're absolutly right Scott. Of course I am not offended. But I am not writing an article on Dao history. I'm writing an article about the questions I have on the origins of the now famous saber used by modern Yang stylists, and some possible answers I can think of after some talking with you and others on this forum, and reading some other stuff on the web and books on taijiquan history. This is purely a speculation article on that saber and not a historical survey of chinese sabers in general. I know almost literally nothing of chinese history, neither of the chinese sabers. Thanks anyway for always giving usefull info. God's Chinese Son is arriving this week, and The Cambridge Ilustrated History of China also. I'm just starting to follow your advice. Thanks.

[Mark C. Luk]

God's Chinese Son is an excellent example of Chinese culture in action... basically another popular revolution (this time Christian) that was eventually crushed by the forces of conventional Chinese government. The rebels had access to military armaments including cannons, and the fighting lasted longer than you would think... I believe Fairbanks wrote this book, you will probably enjoy other books by the same author.