Summer Olympics

[D. Medlock]

Hey there. I've just started lessons at a classical salle, and tonight they mentioned the summer olympics, and fencing's threatened status at the games.

Are there rules changes afoot? Something about making electrical fencing more palatable to T.V. viewers? Haven't been able to find anything on the net.

[David Neevel]

Fencing itself is not threatened, though in the long run the presence of the team events in fencing may be threatened (as well as the team events in other "individual" sports). In addition, there has been a great deal of controversy about how to include Women's Sabre in the Olympics.

Here's the basic outline:

The IOC wants to keep the Summer Olympics from continuing to grow to the point where they become unmanageably large. The goal is to limit the total number of althetes to the current level of approx. 12,000. What this has meant for fencing has been:

1. The number of competitors in the Olympic fencing competition has been limited by establishing qualification requirements. Only fencers and national teams that have acheived a certain ranking on the points lists (and at the previous year's World Championships in the case of teams), subject to geographical distribution requirements, are eligible. Additionally, there are Olympic year Zonal tournaments through which fencers who have not made it in via the rankings can qualify.

2. The IOC is not in the foreseeable future going to allow fencing to have more than 10 events (i.e., 5 individual and 5 team events). That's the number that fencing had prior to Women's Sabre.

Constraint 2 has been the source of all the wrangling over how to bring Women's Sabre into the picture. To simply add both Women's Individual and Team Sabre would bring fencing to 12 events. The solution ultimately adopted over the course of the last 3 years is to have individual events in all weapons and genders (MF,WF,ME,WE,MS,WS), but then have only 4 team events at the Olympic games (with a rotation established for which team events will be in which Olympic games). It was finally determined that WF team and MS team would be the ones left out for Athens (separate World Championship competitions for those events will be held). The problem is, this change was done mid-course through the Olympic quadrennial, and generated a lot a bad feeling among the althletes who were affected.

As I noted above, what the IOC is probably really saying to the FIE (and the IGBs of other sports) is: "Lose the team events". There was a white-paper published by the IOC last year regarding the management of the size of the games and inclusion of future sports, and one of the recommendations was to eliminate team event in sports that are essentially individual. The same white paper also recommended eliminating some sports, and fencing was NOT one of them.

As for making fencing TV-friendly, this has been one of the things that current FIE prez Rene Roch has been pushing, altough some of his notions about that just don't fly. To wit, Roch ultimately fixated on the ideas of:

1. Lexan visor masks (so that spectators could see fencers faces)

and

2. Wireless scoring (based on the idea that somehow seeing reel cables is distracting).

Well, fencers themselves don't care much for the Lexan masks (heavy, poor ventilation, scratch-prone faceplates). Wireless scoring is a lot more complicated than one might think. People have been attempting this for the last 30 years. There has yet to be a truly workable system for foil or epee developed. The wireless sabre system currently in use at World Cups and World Championships is complex, expensive, and cumbersome (it takes technicians about 30 minutes to get a fencer set up).

Finally, there is a raft of changes to foil which are supposed to be implemented in the Junior World Cup circuit next season as a trial before universal implementation. They are:

1. Increase the debounce time for the point (i.e., how long the point has to fix on the target) to 15 ms minimum from the current 1 ms.
2. Decrease the double touch lockout time to 300 ms from the current 750 ms (i.e., if you hit your opponent more thant 300 ms -about 1/3 sec.- before they hit you, their touch won't register).
3. Introduce a new foil point which has the same spring weight and travel requirments as an epee point.
4. Max. bend for foil blades is 1 cm.
5. Reversing shoulders in no longer an offense.

The purpose of these changes is to reduce the effectiveness of marching attacks with a withdrawn blade and make is tougher for for flick hits to register. I've had experience with the debounce time and lockout time changes, and they make some (but not a huge) difference. As for the new point, the basic problem is that it was only a proof-of-concept prototype when adopted. None of the manufacturers have developed finished, production-ready versions.

-Dave Neevel
USFA Armorer

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by David Neevel
Fencing itself is not threatened, though in the long run the presence of the team events in fencing may be threatened (as well as the team events in other "individual" sports). In addition, there has been a great deal of controversy about how to include Women's Sabre in the Olympics.

Here's the basic outline:

The IOC wants to keep the Summer Olympics from continuing to grow to the point where they become unmanageably large. The goal is to limit the total number of althetes to the current level of approx. 12,000. What this has meant for fencing has been:

1. The number of competitors in the Olympic fencing competition has been limited by establishing qualification requirements. Only fencers and national teams that have acheived a certain ranking on the points lists (and at the previous year's World Championships in the case of teams), subject to geographical distribution requirements, are eligible. Additionally, there are Olympic year Zonal tournaments through which fencers who have not made it in via the rankings can qualify.

2. The IOC is not in the foreseeable future going to allow fencing to have more than 10 events (i.e., 5 individual and 5 team events). That's the number that fencing had prior to Women's Sabre.

Constraint 2 has been the source of all the wrangling over how to bring Women's Sabre into the picture. To simply add both Women's Individual and Team Sabre would bring fencing to 12 events. The solution ultimately adopted over the course of the last 3 years is to have individual events in all weapons and genders (MF,WF,ME,WE,MS,WS), but then have only 4 team events at the Olympic games (with a rotation established for which team events will be in which Olympic games). It was finally determined that WF team and MS team would be the ones left out for Athens (separate World Championship competitions for those events will be held). The problem is, this change was done mid-course through the Olympic quadrennial, and generated a lot a bad feeling among the althletes who were affected.

As I noted above, what the IOC is probably really saying to the FIE (and the IGBs of other sports) is: "Lose the team events". There was a white-paper published by the IOC last year regarding the management of the size of the games and inclusion of future sports, and one of the recommendations was to eliminate team event in sports that are essentially individual. The same white paper also recommended eliminating some sports, and fencing was NOT one of them.

As for making fencing TV-friendly, this has been one of the things that current FIE prez Rene Roch has been pushing, altough some of his notions about that just don't fly. To wit, Roch ultimately fixated on the ideas of:

1. Lexan visor masks (so that spectators could see fencers faces)

and

2. Wireless scoring (based on the idea that somehow seeing reel cables is distracting).

Well, fencers themselves don't care much for the Lexan masks (heavy, poor ventilation, scratch-prone faceplates). Wireless scoring is a lot more complicated than one might think. People have been attempting this for the last 30 years. There has yet to be a truly workable system for foil or epee developed. The wireless sabre system currently in use at World Cups and World Championships is complex, expensive, and cumbersome (it takes technicians about 30 minutes to get a fencer set up).

Finally, there is a raft of changes to foil which are supposed to be implemented in the Junior World Cup circuit next season as a trial before universal implementation. They are:

1. Increase the debounce time for the point (i.e., how long the point has to fix on the target) to 15 ms minimum from the current 1 ms.
2. Decrease the double touch lockout time to 300 ms from the current 750 ms (i.e., if you hit your opponent more thant 300 ms -about 1/3 sec.- before they hit you, their touch won't register).
3. Introduce a new foil point which has the same spring weight and travel requirments as an epee point.
4. Max. bend for foil blades is 1 cm.
5. Reversing shoulders in no longer an offense.

The purpose of these changes is to reduce the effectiveness of marching attacks with a withdrawn blade and make is tougher for for flick hits to register. I've had experience with the debounce time and lockout time changes, and they make some (but not a huge) difference. As for the new point, the basic problem is that it was only a proof-of-concept prototype when adopted. None of the manufacturers have developed finished, production-ready versions.

-Dave Neevel
USFA Armorer

Dave,

the worst part of the the stuff the Roch is proposing is that its mostly a bunch of half measures.

If you look at the TV coverage fencing gets, say, on eurosport, or have tapes of the prior olympics... well.. the BIG issue is that most of the time you cant see the blades, and even on the replays the action isn't terribly clear. Sabre was near impossible to follow in the 2000 olympics, until the replay.

I sat down with the tape that Eric Dew was providing, and counted no less than a couple of dozen fleches that went unpenalized on the sabre tape. That to me is indicia of the problem as well. The severe lack of desire on the part of the officials to *properly* enforce the rules, causes problems as well.

Sabre was also hard to follow visually, even with the S2000 blades - and frankly, doesn't look like swordplay. olympic boxing, judo, etc, still look like combat arts of one extent or another - the direction 'modern' fencing has gone, really has robbed everything but epee of the look and feel of swordplay in my opinion, especially when viewed on tv. A return to the pre 1905 rules blades (ie duelling sabre size, weight and curvature) would help a lot in terms of TV visibility and the appearance of actually being a sword. the slightly heftier/stiffer blade and the curvature would encourage fencers to use the true and false edges rather than the flat as has become popular, and would generate fencing actions which would be useful in a *combative* sense, and in turn make it look more like the swordplay the public expects. it would also serve to get us back to the point of fencing sabre. I'd also like to see rule forbidding carrying the blade..

Foil, frankly in my opinion needs a total overhaul. we either need a compression point/handle that can account for and REQUIRE the equivalent of a couple of inches of penetration, and if we can get that, we'll have solved the flick problem, the materiality problem... increasing the 'depth of penetration' would be an easy way to solve it. further, the introduction and requirement of the s2000 sabre blades says that there is the ability to mandate a total equipment change, and have it fly with the masses.

Epee even could benefit from a 'depth of penetration' type point as well.

I also think the team events need to go. they've always seemed pretty counter intuitive to me. if they were 4 on 4 at once, that would be one thing, but a serially fenced team event has always merely reinforced to me that fencing really is an individual sport.

I'm firmly convinced that making fencing spectator friendly has to do with making it comprehensible to the general public, and that such goal will be achieved through getting fencing back to looking like swordplay, rather than continuing the argument that a combat sport can 'evolve' in the absence of real combat, and not descend into silliness. The solution isn't in coloured uniforms, clear masks, or wireless scoring, but in making the blades visible, the rules clear and enforced, and the fencing look like swordplay.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence that the road we're on is leading us anywhere, and the sport, in the past drew crowds and big-money purses. People obviously still relate to and have an interest in swords - this site, and all the movies in the last few years featuring swords (several this year) are telling of that. but when what we're doing doesn't look remotely like swordplay (not that you have to look like theatrical swordplay) and even if it looked like swordplay, we couldn't see it on TV because of the near invisible, nonswordly blades, or understand the half followed rules, we shouldn't be surprised that TV isn't interested in what we're doing.

I love the art of fencing, but I'm quickly running out of patience and interest in the 'sport' of it. It's really left a bad taste in my mouth.

[D. Medlock]

Thanks for the excellent replies. Being introduced to the art in a classical salle, and having never fenced electric or seen it done, my idea of what it is like and how closely it resembles real swordplay is based on other people's opinions. I suppose I'll watch the summer games and decide for myself.

It's a pleasure to watch experienced fencers at my club, and even as a novice I am able to get a general idea of what is happening and who is getting touches. I think that if you could get that same sense watching olympic fencing it would be a very television-friendly sport indeed.

One thing I do know: it sure is expensive. Looks like a "dry" rig will cost you $150, while an electric runs somewhere north of $350.

Anyway, thanks again. Very helpful.

David

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by D. Medlock
Thanks for the excellent replies. Being introduced to the art in a classical salle, and having never fenced electric or seen it done, my idea of what it is like and how closely it resembles real swordplay is based on other people's opinions. I suppose I'll watch the summer games and decide for myself.

It's a pleasure to watch experienced fencers at my club, and even as a novice I am able to get a general idea of what is happening and who is getting touches. I think that if you could get that same sense watching olympic fencing it would be a very television-friendly sport indeed.

One thing I do know: it sure is expensive. Looks like a "dry" rig will cost you $150, while an electric runs somewhere north of $350.

Anyway, thanks again. Very helpful.

David

I hear people say all the time that its an expensive sport. It's not. look at a set of golf clubs, or hockey gear, or football gear... a good baseball bat and helmet will cost you...

Decent kendo gear will start around $600 for something that won't fall apart immediately...

Even electric sabre isn't too expensive if you keep that stuff in mind.

The problem is that the action is so hard to see on TV. I can drag someone in off the street to the fencing club, and explain things, and they can see it.. but if i show fencing tape to someone new, most of the time they say 'where are the blades?' because they're just so danged hard to see against the background and in the distance shots required to get both fencers in the frame due to the distance between fencers.

beyond that, modern fencing (especially foil) looks rather unlike swordplay with the flicky stuff and the super duper bent arm attacks.. Right of way is not clearly conveyed to new viewers, and is often rather counterintuitive to them. When the announcer says 'to be valid, the attack is made with the arm extending and continuously threatening valid target' and the fencer is moving forward with his hand behind his head and the point in the air behind his head and the blade not yet going forward past vertical to the opponent, its hard to explain how that is right of way (as its still commonly called for whatever reason). Its ludicrous but its often prefaced with 'thats how they do it in Europe'

I've done the sport for 10 years, and I'm getting sick of it. not that i'm opinionated or anything.

[D. Medlock]

I hear people say all the time that its an expensive sport. It's not, look at a set of golf clubs, or hockey gear, or football gear... a good baseball bat and helmet will cost you...

At more than twice the price of a dry setup, it sure seems more expensive...

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by D. Medlock
I hear people say all the time that its an expensive sport. It's not, look at a set of golf clubs, or hockey gear, or football gear... a good baseball bat and helmet will cost you...

At more than twice the price of a dry setup, it sure seems more expensive...

Well... thanks Capt. Obvious yes...its more expensive, because its more stuff.. you still have to have the full uniform, then add the 'lectric fencin' gear on to that.. What I'm getting at is that in the grand scheme of things, its not that bad. A single competiton jai alai ball is several hundred dollars, and good for about 30 minutes of professional play, the handwoven wicker baskets are also several hundred dollars a pop, custom fit to the user, and a player will use several per season... ouch!

Heck, my girlfriend does ballet, and goes through a couple pairs of pointe shoes in a month or so, at 60$/pair (roughly)..

I try *really* hard to break people of the idea that it is expensive when a decent beginners set (weapon, mask, jacket and glove) can be had for under 200.00$... Heck, you can get a full set of fencing gear, including knickers, for less than the price of some decent quality beginner iaito (basic iaito at tozando.com, on sale for 282$, basic meirin iaito at bugei.com is $388 and we haven't even bought a hakama, obi, or dogi yet) For right at $265 at triplette.com, you can get both a regular and electric starter set for foil, and for another $55.00 you can get knickers and a plastron. At this point, you're basically ready to fence in full equipment in the club (and yes, some clubs do *require* knickers and plastron at all times) so, for about 330$ you're ready to go.. still cheaper than just the iaito from bugei...

and heck, you have a whole pile of nifty "stuff" that will confuse and impress your friends. more is more

Anyway, I'm not taking shots at you, so please don't take it that way - but pretty much any sporting or martial arts endeavour will cost you a decent amount in equipment (unless the club provides it, in which case you're subsidizing it in your dues, and not getting any lasting benefit from it long term) I just get really sick of people talking about how its costs are prohibitive.

best,
chris

[D. Medlock]

No, no. I tossed off a casual remark and you gave me a better perspective. You've thought this through a lot more than I have.

Thanks again for taking the time to write an essay (and a good one) in response to each of my posts. The sport (art?) is lucky to have such ardent enthusiasts.

Finally, I now have some ammo to use against my wife's protests. "But darling, everybody knows that a jai alai ball goes for several hundred bucks, and it's only good for thirty minutes! A foil can last years!" Now if I only knew what a jai alai ball was, I'd be in business...

Truly, thanks again, and please ignore the flippant one-liner.

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by D. Medlock
No, no. I tossed off a casual remark and you gave me a better perspective. You've thought this through a lot more than I have.

Thanks again for taking the time to write an essay (and a good one) in response to each of my posts. The sport (art?) is lucky to have such ardent enthusiasts.

Finally, I now have some ammo to use against my wife's protests. "But darling, everybody knows that a jai alai ball goes for several hundred bucks, and it's only good for thirty minutes! A foil can last years!" Now if I only knew what a jai alai ball was, I'd be in business...

Truly, thanks again, and please ignore the flippant one-liner.

Heh, thats ok - I've been teaching fencing for 7 years, and have *had* to think things through in order to provide junior fencers with ammo to use to get their parents to buy them decent gear instead of crap.

If you've never seen jai alai, do a search for it on google, you'll find some fascinating stuff. fast action and SUPER dangerous sport... I've only seen video of it, but in my opinion, it has all the 'xtreme' sports beat, considering it has a wicked scary casualty rate.

[Doug McLaren]

Chris, I've been teaching fencing to beginners now for a few months shy of 18 years, and you echo my feelings very closely. Your opinions on the direction of the sport, and its unfriendliness to television were spot on.

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by Doug McLaren
Chris, I've been teaching fencing to beginners now for a few months shy of 18 years, and you echo my feelings very closely. Your opinions on the direction of the sport, and its unfriendliness to television were spot on.

Doug,

thanks for the kind words. I think the real shame here is that probably 50% or more of the people at the grassroots level who have tried to watch fencing on tape/tv/training dvd's have the same feelings - yet are completely ignored by the people at the top.

The truth is that fixing things would require a radical paradigm shift, and the people in charge, while the embrace change facially, as applied they are terribly resistant to it. anything which will change the 'game' (as many of those people are horrified by the idea that sword were once sharp and used by people to hurt other people, who happened to be trying to hurt them) is to be resisted, because there is a possibility that it might not shake out in the wash, and that the power structure might realign as classical technique takes back over, and the one trick ponies 1 trick stops working.

I keep hearing people say 'well, it would cost too much to change' the FIE doesn't give a rats hindquarters about that. They're the same group who tried to force the clear masks without heed of the costs, who forces FIE blades/uniforms (for the better I think) in most competiton in Europe... plus they're the people who switched to and required the S2000 blade, along with any number of other expense causing things over the years. the simple fact is that going to a more visible, stiffer, sabre blade with a proper curve, and requiring clean martial technique would be massively inconvenient for all those people at the higher levels, who might suddenly find themselves back in the pack as sheer athleticism ceases to rule the day.

The FIE recognizes that foil is screwed up - or else it wouldn't be considering the host of changes its bandied about over the last couple years.. switching to sabre masks in foil would certainly be an expensive change, as would electrifying the back arm...
even there, the logic doesn't work well... if we electrify the back arm, why not the hand (fingers and palm included?) why not the front hand, outside of fingers, and hand in sabre? why not go back to the original idea of having the sabre guard be isolated from the blade electrically?

Or, instead of all this electrification, how about telling the refs 'ok... heres the deal, if their hand comes forward of their body in any way that the arm or hand could cover target (even if not touching the target) you WILL give the yellow card, and any off target scored on the arm will be counted as replacement of target, and scored as such in addition to the card.'

So much of the problem seems to have to do with the LACK of rules enforcement... I counted a couple dozen sabre fleches in the 2000 olympics that went unpunished, including a couple where the hit was out of time, on the second step of the fleche!the rules allow replay, and allow for foot judges... again, draw a bright line, and say 'you will enforce this, or you will not ref - and your floor judges are also independently allowed to call the crosstep, and their decision is binding' oh...wait... its easier to only selectively enforce it..


Its a big bunch of crap all the way around. frankly, I would almost like to see fencing cut from the Olympics - I think that would suck quite a bit of the money out of it, and some of the so called elite and power brokers might be inclined to go elsewhere.

I've also noticed that my opinions are a bit 'older' in general... my instructor is 72 years old, and studied under G. Santelli in the 1950's.... and even though we consider fencing a sport - its a martial sport, and generally believe that if we're not teaching effective skills in the original context, we're probably missing the point somewhere.

Sigh. I'm completely burned out on the 'sport' I love the art though, and I love the teacher student relationship, as well as keeping our dwindling lineage going, with its intent intact.

best,
chris

[William Marshal]

I often say, in discussions with fellow fencers, that I couldn't care less whether they drop fencing from the Olympics, and for the same reasons: we'd lose the prima donnas whose ONLY reason for being in fencing is the lure of that medal, and we'd lose the bureaucrats who lust after the reputation and money surrounding Olympic success...and that'd probably be a net gain for the sport. Naturally, everyone else is horrified at the very thought. They've all been thoroughly indoctrinated with the idea that the Olympics are the end-all and be-all of the sport, and that fencing would simply wither away and perish without them.

[Ian Brackley]

Chris,

I share your opinon of the present state of sport fencing. Although I don't even see anything remotely swordplay-like in epee either. The intented is distorted beyond recognition, people are too eager to offend and score that buzzer and blinking bloody light.....ugh. While those better versed than I in sport fencing may see two finely conditioned champion fencers I see two suicidal pseudo-swordsmen.

But rather than retread over old points may I suggest another option that may very well revitalize interest in the ART (well put distinction by the by).............

BRING SINGLESTICK BACK TO THE OLYMPICS!!

[J Marwood]

Originally posted by Ian Brackley
BRING SINGLESTICK BACK TO THE OLYMPICS!!

I'd love to see this! At least with a single stick it is very hard to ignore or miss a hit.

I'd also like to echo William Marshal's comments about the Olympics. IMHO a similar thing has happened with Judo. I trained in this for a while with some very traditional, non-sport guys and seeing the difference between these and the sports guys was amazing. In sparring the sport guys would often drop to the ground if they missed a throw. Do this with the trad guys and they'd kick you in the head

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by Ian Brackley
Chris,

I share your opinon of the present state of sport fencing. Although I don't even see anything remotely swordplay-like in epee either. The intented is distorted beyond recognition, people are too eager to offend and score that buzzer and blinking bloody light.....ugh. While those better versed than I in sport fencing may see two finely conditioned champion fencers I see two suicidal pseudo-swordsmen.

But rather than retread over old points may I suggest another option that may very well revitalize interest in the ART (well put distinction by the by).............

BRING SINGLESTICK BACK TO THE OLYMPICS!!

Ian,

The problem, in my opinion, with epee, is the multi point system...
if you take good epeeists, and make them fence 1 touch, with doubles being a double loss, in a round robin format - the distortion vanishes almost immediately - granted, they'd do better if they were brought up fencing that way, but it still becomes FAR more cautious.. doesn't make up for the normal slop though in normal competition.

i think singlestick would be a heck of a fun event...

[John Finnicum]

Just in case anyone is interested....there is a great article at fencing.net about the changes proposed in foil. The address is http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/142/35/

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by John Finnicum
Just in case anyone is interested....there is a great article at fencing.net about the changes proposed in foil. The address is http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/142/35/

I've read it, and I'm not sure I totally agree with it. I think, yet again, they're attempting to fix things my mandating change in equipment, rather than changes to more realistic fencing.

Further, I'm not entirely certain that they are doing a good thing by making the lockout smaller...


I'd prefer to see a full revamp of the weapon - a return to french or italian grips, and a either a longer point, or the unwired, spring based sliding blade idea - and require a quality of penetration (tip or blade travel in the range of half an inch or so.

I think that, coupled with a longer tip on target time (with testing of say, the top 10 fencers over 500 flicks each, to determine the range of time a flick stays on target, and them move the tip on target time entirely out of that range) would be a good place to start.


My feeling is that the changes made may not fix it, if they can simply hit harder to keep the point on target

though I do understand the unspoken reason to do all this through equipment changes, really, the FIE should exert more control over the directors through sanctions for not applying the rules - the 2 dozen fleches I counted in the 2000 olympic tapes i have for mens sabre, that went unpunished, some even on the second step of the fleche, are absolutely inexcusable, and those people should never direct again.

I must say I'm glad they're removing the reversing of the shoulder rule from foil though. its about time.

[John Finnicum]

I agree about the change in grip. I don't see how the pistol grip even remotely resembles the original sport. I know that when using a pistol grip you have a smaller chance of being disarmed in an agressive block or attack....but come on... I thought a big part of the "old school" style of fencing was disarming your opponenet.

Oh well.... when I go to purchase my own epee it will be the French Style for sure.

[David Black Mastro]

Originally posted by Chris Holzman
Sabre was also hard to follow visually, even with the S2000 blades - and frankly, doesn't look like swordplay. olympic boxing, judo, etc, still look like combat arts of one extent or another - the direction 'modern' fencing has gone, really has robbed everything but epee of the look and feel of swordplay in my opinion, especially when viewed on tv.

Chris,

That's a great and extremely pertinent observation on your part; the other "manly art" Olympic sports (ie., boxing, freestyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, & "wrestling in the Japanese manner"--judo) have retained more of their actual combative character. One could admittedly talk about how judo has drastically changed--starting as primarily an art of standing throws and the like, it then incorporated the entire ne-waza (ground grappling) syllabus of the Fusen-ryu school of jujutsu, and matches were mainly won by submission holds used on the ground. Then, with judo founder Jigoro Kano wishing to get judo into the Olympics, rule changes were implemented to limit time on the mat, and hence shift the emphasis of judo back to throwing.

But it's nothing compared to the way fencing has become bastardized, as a combat sport. The modern saber's ancestor, the "Radaellian" saber, was really the beginning of this shift in emphasis. It was not sufficiently heavy enough, as a cutting weapon, except under the articifical conventions of the duel. Despite this, the Radaellian form ultimately ousted the ostensibly more practical heavy sabers and backswords from Western fencing culture.

And who can help but marvel at the fact that singlestick was actually an Olympic Sport until 1904 (which was, curiously, dominated by Cubans--as J Christoph Amberger observed in Hammerterz Forum). Amberger also noted that singlestick survived into the 1930s, in both English public schools and the US Navy (where it was employed for cutlass practice). The singlestick was fencing's "fourth weapon", and it was an Olympic sport until just 100 years ago. It's amazing how much can be lost in so short a time--look at how modern HEMA practitioners have to "reconstruct" even this comparatively modern Western sword form.

Your suggestion for a return to a saber of at least Radaellian proportions is definitely the right idea, IMO.

A minority of top-level grapplers are currently striving to preserve what's left of old American catch-as-catch-can/English Lancashire wrestling. Ironically, one of CACC's greatest modern exponents is a Japanese fighter, Kazushi Sakuraba (CACC and judo/jujutsu were great grappling rivals in the late 19th and early 20th centuries).

It would be nice to do the same with fencing--to preserve what's left in fencing that's really combatively functional, and then build upon that, using the earlier incarnations of the science as a guide.

I salute you for your suggestion, sir.

Best Regards,

David Black Mastro

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by David Black Mastro
Chris,

(SNIP)

I salute you for your suggestion, sir.

Best Regards,

David Black Mastro

David,

Thank you for the kind words, however, I feel its mostly just common sense. Unfortunately, common sense has become much less common recently. My Maestro, Ted Hootman, studied sabre and epee under G. Santelli in the early 1950's, as well as under Rene Pinchard (epee) and Niederkirschner (sabre). Then later in the early 1970's he studied sabre and Italian school epee under Nick Toth. Ted later quit teaching sabre, from about the mid seventies, until the early ninties when I started fencing. Maestro really ended up taking the basic Santelli game, and adding the soft fingers of the Toth system to it.. I've thus been taught a *very* classical/combative system and chosen to apply it to the sport. It's not pure Radaellian sabre, though there are clear elements that made it through I. and G. Santelli, from Radaelli and Carlo Pessina.

I don't know if you knew this or not, but Nick Toth served as a second in a military sabre duel whilst still in Hungary.. apparently against the first first action, a direct head cut, Nick's principal made a sixte parry and a rising bandoleer cut, with the expected gruesome results. I think it does speak to the sort of training that Toth would have gotten in Hungary at the time, and the intent behind it.

I know that my viewpoint is different than a lot of modern fencers, but its hard to help it when I consider my background, and the amount of time Maestro wasn't teaching sabre, and thus missed most of the wierdness that occured in the 70's and 80's.

To me the Radaellian/Pecoraro/Barbasetti type sabres make a great deal of sense to me for Olympic use. Light and fast enough to allow a similar game to todays, but with the curvature to induce false edge use rather than using the flat as is popular today. they have just enough height to the blade to show up at least as well as an epee, if not better, on TV, and just enough mass to make you respect it, not want to be hit by it, and enough to make the game flow a little more. It also wouldn't take a *huge* amount of change for most fencers to be competent with the weapons. Sure, some things would change, but it wouldn't just totally set the fencing world on its ear, like say, going to blunted M1860 blades would. serious blades like that would likely lead to some serious injuries as well - as you know as well as i do, that they would resist adding full leather (as it would be too hot under the electric scoring gear

and yeah, I totally understand about single stick - that is another example of something that still looks like combat, any way you slice it, and is at least a little more follow-able than modern sabre.

As far as judo goes, i'll have to take your word for it. it looks cool on TV, but I dont know anything at all about it. Heck, kendo looks better on TV than fencing - at least you can see the shinai. at least shinai LOOK substantial (and certainly hit that way, from my 5 or 10 times in kendo gear; I swear my sensei made me at least an inch shorter during kirikaeshi)

I'd like to see things get better in the fencing world, but honestly, I'm content with just doing what I'm doing, teaching properly, and making sure my students know that if they want to win, fencing properly, they have to fence smarter.


I guess my overall thoughts are:

*SIGH*

Thanks,
chris

[David Black Mastro]

Originally posted by Chris Holzman
David,

Thank you for the kind words, however, I feel its mostly just common sense.

Well...

Unfortunately, common sense has become much less common recently.

Exactly!

I don't know if you knew this or not, but Nick Toth served as a second in a military sabre duel whilst still in Hungary.. apparently against the first first action, a direct head cut, Nick's principal made a sixte parry and a rising bandoleer cut, with the expected gruesome results. I think it does speak to the sort of training that Toth would have gotten in Hungary at the time, and the intent behind it.

I imagine that the famous military saber duel decapitation photo seen in Robert Baldick's The Duel and Christoph Amberger's Secret History of the Sword was the result of a similar engagement (though neither book gives any details in regards to the nationality of the parties involved).

Please tell me (as I'm really only familiar with modern saber parries #1-5), what is the "sixte parry" that you describe above?

I know that my viewpoint is different than a lot of modern fencers, but its hard to help it when I consider my background, and the amount of time Maestro wasn't teaching sabre, and thus missed most of the wierdness that occured in the 70's and 80's.

I understand.

To me the Radaellian/Pecoraro/Barbasetti type sabres make a great deal of sense to me for Olympic use. Light and fast enough to allow a similar game to todays, but with the curvature to induce false edge use rather than using the flat as is popular today. they have just enough height to the blade to show up at least as well as an epee, if not better, on TV, and just enough mass to make you respect it, not want to be hit by it, and enough to make the game flow a little more. It also wouldn't take a *huge* amount of change for most fencers to be competent with the weapons. Sure, some things would change, but it wouldn't just totally set the fencing world on its ear, like say, going to blunted M1860 blades would. serious blades like that would likely lead to some serious injuries as well - as you know as well as i do, that they would resist adding full leather (as it would be too hot under the electric scoring gear

Agreed.

and yeah, I totally understand about single stick - that is another example of something that still looks like combat, any way you slice it, and is at least a little more follow-able than modern sabre.

Definitely.

As far as judo goes, i'll have to take your word for it. it looks cool on TV, but I dont know anything at all about it.

One of the reasons it looks cool on tv (when you can catch it on tv, at least) is that emphasis on standing throws. This is something that began with rule changes starting in 1925, that were intended to prevent groundwork from dominating the matches. To the "average" viewer, pre-1925 judo would probably look pretty boring.

Heck, kendo looks better on TV than fencing - at least you can see the shinai.

This is true.

at least shinai LOOK substantial (and certainly hit that way, from my 5 or 10 times in kendo gear; I swear my sensei made me at least an inch shorter during kirikaeshi)

LOL!

I'd like to see things get better in the fencing world, but honestly, I'm content with just doing what I'm doing, teaching properly, and making sure my students know that if they want to win, fencing properly, they have to fence smarter.

My old Maestro, Mark Holbrow, would like to see the elimination of flick attacks--he once remarked that he thought the problem could be solved simply by substituting foil blades with epee blades.

I guess my overall thoughts are:

*SIGH*

Thanks,
chris

Good talking with you,

David

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by David Black Mastro

(SNIPPAGE)


Please tell me (as I'm really only familiar with modern saber parries #1-5), what is the "sixte parry" that you describe above?

My old Maestro, Mark Holbrow, would like to see the elimination of flick attacks--he once remarked that he thought the problem could be solved simply by substituting foil blades with epee blades.

David,

The sabre sixte parry (from the Radaelli lineage - which carried through to me) is performed like five, but with the guard on the opposite side of the head. Assume two right handed fencers: A and B.

Classical and Modern:
A attacks B in tierce. B parries tierce, and ripostes to head. A parries in fifth. A parries in fifth for two reasons in this situation, one, because its all he's been taught to protect the head, and two, because in this situation, it keeps his blade under B's blade all the time, thus making the parry possible.

Modern only:
A attacks B in quarte. B parries quarte, and ripostes to head. A makes a parry of counter-fifth, because fifth is all hes been taught. if B is dumb and attacks directly to the top of the head, A has a decent chance of making the parry, all else being equal. If be is smart and attacks with a diagonal to the left ear of A, making that counter fifth just got harder. much harder. Most modern guys don't know prime, and thats a bad parry for this situation anyway. neither is quarte a great idea.

Classical Response, Sixte parry:
A attacks B in quarte, B parries quarte, ripostes to head or left ear. A immediately brings his guard diagonally back, upwards and across his body, keeping his blade under B's - the point stays fairly far forward and high.. parry complete. from there he can drop his hand and riposte anywhere on the inside arm or inside head/body, spin the wrist and cut to the right ear or outside of arm, or direct back to the head, or make a moulinet from the elbow (with a sort of expulsion of B's blade while he is at it, and make an upward diagonal cut under B's weapon arm.

There is also a Seventh parry. from en garde in tierce, lower the point to below horizontal, roll the wrist to supination, as you're lifting the hand to vertical (from the elbow) the point should be slightly forward and outside your outside line, catching the incoming cut to your weapon shoulder or flank, yielding, and then giving it back to them with an over the head cut from the elbow and shoulder, right back into their flank or weapon arm. Also works well with a left oblique forward step (cross-step if classical, or just forward and to the right with the right foot, if doing the modern thing)


As for the flick, I'm for its elimination as well - however, the epee blade swap for foil would not be sufficient. I know several fencers who are easily capable of the most egregious middle of the back flicks with an epee.
The FIE just approved changes to the tip on target time, that should make the most horrible of the flicks go away, but some will remain. they've also closed the double touch time, which should make people parry more with opposition to avoid the counterattack - which, well executed, could time out the real attack if executed with a bent arm. oh, they also approved a 750gr tip spring for foil as well. that might help a bit. I'd like to see a longer tip travel requirement, such as 1/2" in addition to the above - I think that would be the real solution.

The FIE tried, I think, to strike a balance between reducing the worst of the flicks, and not upsetting the pecking order in the fencing world.

for what its worth,
Chris

[Byron J. Skillings]

Here's another take on the Summer Olympics:

People who follow the Olympics and know fencers begin to expect that fencing will be shown on TV. Soemtimes it is, for a minute or so in the U.S., and not always favorably...

However, this is an opportunity for those in fencing to promote what they are doing locally. Local demonstrations for schools, Scouts, etc. seem to be well received in an Olympic year. You can build momentum for your fencing organization by taking advantage of the public perception and expectation. Whether you belong to a classical, historic, or modern group it a chance to promote what your group is doing.


Regarding flicks - a very unfortunate, "modern" invention having little to do with proper fencing. Definitely an action to minimize or eliminate via equipment and rule changes. The other way - stop them through breaking the opponent's timing and distance, and a proper parry riposte.

[Chris Holzman]

Originally posted by Byron J. Skillings
Here's another take on the Summer Olympics:

People who follow the Olympics and know fencers begin to expect that fencing will be shown on TV. Soemtimes it is, for a minute or so in the U.S., and not always favorably...

However, this is an opportunity for those in fencing to promote what they are doing locally. Local demonstrations for schools, Scouts, etc. seem to be well received in an Olympic year. You can build momentum for your fencing organization by taking advantage of the public perception and expectation. Whether you belong to a classical, historic, or modern group it a chance to promote what your group is doing.


Regarding flicks - a very unfortunate, "modern" invention having little to do with proper fencing. Definitely an action to minimize or eliminate via equipment and rule changes. The other way - stop them through breaking the opponent's timing and distance, and a proper parry riposte.

As far as the flick goes, I agree to an extent - the problem is that what most referees consider a break in timing, or a proper parry today, simply isn't. there is a major problem in that a ton of refs are giving precedence to a tap-parry that doesn't *fully* impede and redirect a simple attack offline, let refuse to give any sort of contact parry against a flick, unless it *completely* keeps the light from going off. that makes no sense whatsoever. The other half of that problem, is that a lot of referees these days also fail to recognize a tight derobement against the typical pickup in countre sixte and flick... if they weren't *searching* there is absolutley no reason that they should ever be making the countre-sixte.... course, the won't give priority to the counter attack that starts while the guys point is up in the air and off the target either.... of course, if we'd stiffen the blades up to where you couldn't flick them (and yes, it can be done) distance would open up, and full parries would be made. a cupped tip, or blade that retracts into a french handle half an inch on impact would also suffice as an equipment change.

Its like the fleche in sabre - if they would have told the refs "you *must* enforce the rule that the hit must occur before the back foot lands on the FIRST step of the fleche, and that ANYTHING after that is a counter attack, or we'll yank your ref license" we'd never have lost the fleche. of course, in 2000, on the Eurosport broadcast of the sabre competition at the Olympics I stopped counting unpenalized fleches at 2 dozen, of which about 8 were two step fleches......

of course, theres also a rule in the foil section of the book that says the same thing - continuous forward motion with crossing of the feet is a preparation.. by the text of that, I should be able to counter attack into any two cross-step attack, and automatically have the touch - but noone will enforce it. (don't know if its still there, it was as of the 1999 rule book - I haven't fenced foil since 98 or so though. also same with the stepping off the strip to the side after the first couple of times, gets you a card rule... it was on the book for a year, and noone would enforce it. instead of spanking directors, they pulled the rule.

I really have no use for the USFA's running of events... weapons control is a joke - never done properly except at world cup events, and even then not all the time... if they'd start running all the weapons control stuff, black carding people or circumvent it, and confiscating failed weapons, they'd get things settled down in short order... shrug.

or.....they need to take all the rules the dont enforce, out of the book.