Identifying Naval Sword

[GeneF]

I have recently acquired a Royal Navy pattern sword from around the turn of the century. I would like to find out as much information about its pedigree as I can, but unfortunately I don't have access to a copy of Annis and May or Bosanquet. If I were to post some pictures of the etching on the blade, the proof slug and of the hilt and guard, would anyone here be able to help me to further pin down the date of manufacture and identity of the cutler?

[Björn Hellqvist]

Pics are immensely helpful; please post them.

[GeneF]

I actually scanned the blade as I found that this showed the etching much better than photographs. I believe that the period is late Victorian, but any further info would be much appreciated.

[John Hart]

Some info which may help...Source is Annis & May, "Swords for Sea Service".

1) This is an 1827 Pattern Sword with solid half-basket hilt.

2) The fact that the sword has two holes in the shell for the sword knot puts it as after c.1830.

3) The fact that it isn't a pipe-back blade puts it as post-1846. The prominent button at the top of the lion's head is something you see on "later" swords like this - on earlier versions the tang was peened over flush with the top of Leo's head.

4) The crown above the fouled anchor on the blade is the Tudor crown, which was introduced in 1901 and continued in use until 1953.

4) The white fish-skin grip means the sword was purchased by a Commissioned Officer (as opposed to a Warrant Officer).

5) The proof slug might indicate a blade made by Thurkle (source: "British Military Swords" by John Wilkinson-Latham). The Thurkle family name had a long history from 1766 until 1920, when the company was absorbed into the Wilkinson Sword Co.

Hope this helps!

John

[Björn Hellqvist]

Is there any royal cypher?

[GeneF]

To Mr. Hart: Thanks very much for the info. This is just the sort of help I was looking for. You indicated that the Tudor crown was used post 1901. What style of crown was used before this?

To Mr. Hellqvist: No, there is no cypher. My understanding is that cyphers are on most blades from the time of KGV and afterwards, but I could be mistaken.

[John Hart]

Hi Gene,

The attached image should be of help, as it shows not only the different crowns, but also the royal cyphers. I only have one naval sword (dating from c.1827-1830), but it doesn't have a cypher - did the "fouled anchor" motif replace it on earlier swords, I wonder?

Cheers,

John

[Paul Digard]

Dear All

Rather than getting on with what I should be doing...I put together this set of examples of actual blades. Might be of interest to compare with the line drawings in the reference books.

Also, I hope it makes a point I've not seen referred to much, which is that the Tudor crown was definitely used on late Victorian swords. The idea that the crown changed with the change from a female to a male monarch in 1901 doesn't really wash. I've seen numerous examples of P1895 and P1897 Infantry swords with a VR basket and a blade with a Tudor crown, often also with a VR cipher (see pic). I've also seen examples on a P1821 ("P1887") HC, and a P1831 mameluke which if one believes Robson for scabbard styles, dates from after 1898. Perhaps some of these could be dismissed as repros rendered inconsistent by the ignorance of the faker, but the ones I've actually handled seem genuine. Some day I'll get around to looking into the heraldry of it, or even to looking up the one journal reference Robson lists for this subject!

I should also say, the images are partly my own (generally the poorer quality ones!) or have been culled from Ebay. Hope nobody is offended at the piracy if they recognise their handiwork!


Paul

[John Hart]

I too should be working, but here we go...!

One web site I've found:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-crown.html

...Which offers the view that Edward VII merely standardised the crown design from several existing variations. It appears that the "simple" view put forward by Annis & May (whom I should have acknowledged as the picture source in my previous post) may not be as accurate as I first thought.

My pattern 1821 (aka 1887) Heavy Cav also has what appears to be a Tudor crown over the "VR" cypher.

John

[GeneF]

Thanks so much for all of the illuminating info. It sounds like my sword is definitely post 1901, but I would guess not too long after that. It's a bit hard to see on the picture, but the crown on the Royal Arms appears to have be the older "lobed" pattern while the crown over the anchor is Tudor.

[John Harvey]

Yes,
Concur over the crown issue, though the Tudor crown is most frequently found on Naval blades from the 1880's on; Even a Wilkinson bowie RN dirk that I recently had was "miss-marked".
However, the hilt cyphers are usually those officially designated .
John


[...Which offers the view that Edward VII merely standardised the crown design from several existing variations. It appears that the "simple" view put forward by Annis & May (whom I should have acknowledged as the picture source in my previous post) may not be as accurate as I first thought.

My pattern 1821 (aka 1887) Heavy Cav also has what appears to be a Tudor crown over the "VR" cypher.

John [/B][/QUOTE]