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| General Discussion Forum General discussion of swords of all cultures and time periods, makes and methods. |
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Misuse of the word "Shinken"? -
12-13-2005, 02:02 PM
Okay, time for another fireside chat. Boy, we haven't had one in seven years....
Let's discuss the word "shinken". A very basic translation is "martial arts sword" but misuse of the word is occuring frequently on auction sites and usually by importers of Chinese-made katanas.
The katana market is getting flooded with cheap imports because the Chinese have figured out the formula. Those who once made stainless steel wallhangers are starting to use nonstainless steels and are dolling up their hamon (temper lines) be they purely cosmetic or otherwise. Instead of plastic, they're using rayskin. Instead of that last-minute 2mm beveled edge, they're giving the sword more of a "V" grind. They're even polishing the blades up a little more.
As a result, most gaijin Westerners can't tell the difference because they haven't been educated in antiques as a baseline -- and these are the people flocking to these new Chinese "shinken" as if they were the best thing since sliced bread, seeing how they are allegedly cutting through bamboo and the like.
Newsflash: a stainless steel wallhanger can cut through bamboo. Nothing new. A stainless steel wallhanger can be used for tameshigiri. Nothing new.
The Japanese classify their sword-making history into periods. You've heard of the Koto period, Shinto period, etc. We are currently in the "new" period called Shinsaku. Art swords that are made in this period are called Shinsakuto. However, there are swords that somewhat more or less fail to please the eye that the bladesmith decides he won't submit to the annual contests. These are usually sold as martial arts swords. These specifically are called Shinken. Shinken, hence, are swords made traditionally in Japan by Japanese smiths. These are actually used by practitioners in forms practice as well as cutting. They're not considered art pieces that would be kept in pristine condition.
That being said, a lot of these cheap Chinese-made katanas are being marketed as "Shinken" and I think that elevates the cheap katanas to a status they do not deserve. The true Shinken have been treated with almost as much attention to detail as the presentation swords. They might have been rejected for the annual contests simply because the hamon didn't capture all the incredible activities the bladesmith had hoped, or a bit of clay fell off so the hamon turned out funny in a spot, or whatever the reason might be. Many are forged out of tamahagane or orishigane, i.e. traditional steel sources.
I think that it is not appropriate for importers to call the cheap Chinese-made katanas "shinken" for this reason. Because there is no law outlawing their use, and because the power of money will speak more loudly and clearly, there's literally nothing stopping retailers. Nor would I suggest to any of the forum family to denounce or berate any retailer for doing so.
As a community, however, we can take an inward stand and define the standard within ourselves. We do not have to condemn, we simply don't have to accept what's basically improper marketing.
That being said, the Japanese word for "Chinese" is "Chugoku" so one idea I had this morning was calling these "Chugokuto" instead. Now there would not be any confusion with the Chinese Jian and Dao because I would never call a Chinese sword by a Japanese designation. So "Chugoku-to" translates to "Chinese sword" which, in the context of Japanese culture, is most generally a katana, hence "Chinese katana".
Remember that manufactuers are deserving of blame because in many cases they are the ones supplying the retailers with marketing sales pitch. Some retailers are not educated in antiques so their sword knowledge comes from whatever information is provided them in sales brochures authored by the manufacturer. If the manufactuer claims their stuff is shinken, the uneducated retailer will not have any reason to disbelieve that.
Adrian
Maestro of the Bolognese School (Spaghetti sauce, not fencing!)
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12-13-2005, 02:13 PM
This turns upside-down a lot that I was told (by some very dogmatic JSA practitioners in the Forum) over the past several years. Oh well... can't please everyone... I'm going to start calling them curvy-sharp-pointy-thingies (CSPT)... 
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12-13-2005, 02:29 PM
Isn't the use of a word shinken to describe nihonto designated for martial arts use a Japanese marketing term used to differentiate those swords from art swords for the purpose of creating a clear distinction for retailers of one or both products?
If it is in fact a marketing term, why should we allow Japanese marketing distinctions to govern our own definitions?
Doesn't shinken simply mean real or "live" sword?
What is the traditional meaning of "shinken"? Was that word used in the "olden days"?
Last edited by Michael Edelson; 12-13-2005 at 02:33 PM..
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12-13-2005, 02:35 PM
I always assumed shinsaku-to and shinken has different meaning. Being the kanji of shin-ken just means "real" and "sword", I would never would have associate the "shin" to the current period. If I could've mistook that from the kanji of shinken, I'm sure any chinese speaker would too.
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12-13-2005, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Alan C.
I always assumed shinsaku-to and shinken has different meaning. Being the kanji of shin-ken just means "real" and "sword", I would never would have associate the "shin" to the current period. If I could've mistook that from the kanji of shinken, I'm sure any chinese speaker would too.
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I'm with this as well. Shinken is a relatively appropriate name for a sword that can handle real use.
THe better Japanese sword site selling real swords market them as Shinsakuto (newly made swords). Also, to the best of my knowledge, the current period in swordmaking is the Gendaito period or "modern" period. There is some pressure among the Yoshihara School to re-designate the period from about the middle 1980's onward as the shin-gendaito period to further differentiate the high quality swords being made today from the military swords made during the war years. While there is some support for this in the NBTHK, there isn't a consensus.
Many, many martial artists outside of Japan use chinese made swords from Bugei, Fred Chen, Hanwei and others to very good effect, and I suspect that they might take umbrage with these high quality production swords being grouped in with the cheaper stuff out there simply because of its point of origin.
Quality should be the determining factor in whether something is a shinken or not.
Non nobis Domine, non nobis sed Nomini Tuo da Gloriam
"Not to us Lord, Not to us, but to Thy Name be the Glory"
Adsum, Domine: Totus ingenibus meis ad pedes tuos proponeo.
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12-13-2005, 03:13 PM
Adrian, great post. Please make it a sticky if you want to
achieve the best results from it (future readings).
I used to call ShinsakuTo even the rejected
tamahagane/shingane swords because of "Shinken" reached the
meaning of cutting swords made everywhere, of various quality
but ever much far away by the japanese Shinken you refer to.
Time to put order in the words for me too...
Thanks.
Please forgive my english.
Last edited by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini; 12-13-2005 at 03:17 PM..
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12-13-2005, 03:24 PM
Adrian,
what about american-made Katana ?
Beikoku-To ? 
Please forgive my english.
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12-13-2005, 04:01 PM
I see Adrian's frustration, with another useful term added to the "marketing-buzz" terminology. I don't think I've seen a single reputable chinese seller call their product shinken. Chugoku-to seems more then reasonable to call these replicas. You have two votes for a sticky.
"I am the whirlwind. I am the master of fate. I am the tool of fate."
Chuugokuken
Guinness>Sake
Last edited by Alan C.; 12-13-2005 at 04:45 PM..
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12-13-2005, 04:29 PM
And there I was thinking "shin" meant "new", thus "new sword" (as opposed to antique). 
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12-13-2005, 05:02 PM
Somewhat off topic, I know, but what is the difference between "ken" and "to"? I believe both mean the same, but obviously are used in different circumstances...
But hey, at least I still have my hands!
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12-13-2005, 05:18 PM
JIAN is to KEN as DAO is to TO. How's that for confusion. 
Misaki Ito will someday be mine
Knowledge is arrogance when one thinks it is complete.
A true test of a man is what he does when he knows that he won't be found out .
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Hmmm .... -
12-13-2005, 05:20 PM
Very interesting thoughts, Mr. Ko.
For myself, I've very purposefully been using the phrase
" Japanese Style Blade " when posting one of My Sword
Projects. In my mind I don't own a REAL Japanese katana.
The closest I've come were a pair of WWII Gunto -- still a
ways off the mark.
This is not to say I think a great deal less of the blades I
own, but really want myself as well as others to realize
what I have ( perhaps even what they have ) are not
genuine products of the Japanese culture.
What also comes to mind, as Carlo questioned, is how
do we regard American-made Japanese Style blades ?
Is it reasonable to suggest that if you're NOT Japanese,
no matter how good a smith, polisher, mounter you are;
no matter how traditional and historical your method; no
matter how much of the culture you've absorbed into your
life; no matter how much of the descriptive terminology
you use; you're still NOT making a shinsaku ?
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12-13-2005, 05:32 PM
Hmmm CHUGOkuGATANA......>CHUGOGATANA.....>CHUGA
since the Japanese love to shorten things down.
don't sound so cool anymore huh kids. 
Misaki Ito will someday be mine
Knowledge is arrogance when one thinks it is complete.
A true test of a man is what he does when he knows that he won't be found out .
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Huh... -
12-13-2005, 06:23 PM
whatever happened to shinky?
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12-13-2005, 06:34 PM
I've always been a fan of "gaijinto".
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12-13-2005, 06:56 PM
The problem is that online, dealers are allowed to 'lie,' and most people can't tell the difference or haven't got the sense to come to places here to ask around for people who have real experience in buying swords, and they end up trusting the only word they've got; from the vendors.
I'm pretty sure we've seen the "Fully functional stainless steel," lies everywhere, and many people can't tell the difference. I mean, it's impossible to reach into the monitor, pick up the sword, and then shake it to feel if the blade rattles inside the handle.
If only people could come -here- first. Then maybe we'd see fewer wallhangers out there as people became more aware of the dangers of being ripped off.
But no, as internet shopping becomes more and more widely accepted, the market is growing; and so are the number of people that get swindled each day.
What little hope is left to us now is that the wallhanger market will overextend itself and collapse under its own weight.
- Dave.
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12-13-2005, 08:59 PM
I too have to go along with Alan and Andrew. Shinken being used to describe any cutting quality 'live bladed' sword that is either non-Japanese in origin or does not fall under Japanese quality standards to be rated a Katana.
Maybe oversimplified but I think it's somewhat similar in application as Sparkling Wine vs Champagne.
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12-14-2005, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Seth F.
I've always been a fan of "gaijinto".
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No, that term is an honorable term made up by Randal Graham for those made by us Westerners. : 
Adrian
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12-14-2005, 01:41 AM
Okay, I see some people think "shinken" means "live blade". I also got PM'd for some clarification on something else I said, which now I don't remember... (sorry, I'm tired and it's late).
Let me explain something again that I think people have missed.
Japanese Sword Periods
Koto Period (pre-1596)
Shinto Period (1597-1780)
Shin-Shinto Period (1781-1876)
Gendai Period (1877-1945)
Shinsaku Period (modern period, i.e. now)
As I was told, the difference between shinsakuto and shinken is that the shinsakuto is culturally significant. Nihon-to are culturally significant.
Remember that "nihon-to" doesn't just mean "Japanese sword" and doesn't just mean "Japanese sword made by Japanese bladesmith in Japan through Japan's time honored process and Japan's materials," etc. It means it's a culturally significant piece. A WW2 gunto that is made by stock removal (grinding) and which is a byproduct of a mass production factory process is considered munitions and if recovered by the Japanese government will be destroyed under the terms of Japan's surrender. Yes I know that sucks to many non-Japanese but it's true: they do not consider gunto to be nihon-to. An ancestral blade that was mounted in WW2 wartime gunto-looking fittings is still nihon-to.
Smiths are ranked by the annual competition, and the higher the rank the higher the price that bladesmith can command. So imagine if you're a lower ranking smith and you are limited by the Japanese government's NBTHK (Japan's official historical preservation society) to only make two nihon-to per month.
The reason for this two sword limit is that the NBTHK believed that mass production would dilute the quality, and bear in mind that the NBTHK is a conservation society seeking to preserve the national icon of Japan.
A sword that is culturally significant and that's going to be representative of Japanese's national icon had better live up to certain standards.
A lower ranking bladesmith may start making something but in its final stages the sword may turn out to be a little less than what the bladesmith expected. Get this: it's made out of tamahagane. It's forge-folded. It's heat treated. Everything about the sword is perfectly traditional. But now the bladesmith has a decision to make. Should he have that blade represent him as a culturally significant shinsakuto or shall he make another one that would represent him (and ultimately Japan) better?
And then he has a second decision to make: what does he do with this slightly less-than-artistically-perfect blade?
Now you may not know this but some bladesmiths in Japan have had to diversity in order to survive. Some are knife makers (and some of them make American style fighting knives!) Some make tools such as woodworking chisels and you may even see very elaborate pattern welding in such tools.
Some make shinken. Apparently there isn't a limit to how many shinken a bladesmith can make because these are not the art swords that would potentially be culturally significant. Culturally significant ones are limited to two per month per bladesmith.
The sword the bladesmith decides isn't good enough to be entered into the beauty contests can have a second opportunity as a shinken. I've seen one incredible shinken shown to me by Alf Tan of www.japanesesword.com -- this one happened to have a very wide blade, and there was indeed a forge-welded (read: folded) grain, hamon, proper polish, etc. If you had seen it, it would have put the Fred Chen "Steel Iaito" to shame.
Are all shinken made out of tamahagane? I do not know.
But after talking to a few collectors out there, my understanding is that:
a. The sword period we are in is "Shinsaku"
b. "Shin" means new. "Shin-Shinto" means "New Shinto" (i.e. the Shinshinto period versus the Shinto period).
c. Shinsaku-to are art swords made in this current era of Shinsaku. They're not just "Newly made swords" as in "fresh off the press". A Shinto-period blade was made in the Shinto-period. A Koto blade was made in the Koto period. Gendai blade in the gendai period.
d. A shinken is a sword, yes, but not an art sword. It is a sword made in our current Shinsaku period. Why it's not called Shinsakuken I have no idea. Direct translations don't do it justice because it would directly translate to "new sword" which means nothing to someone who doesn't have a context of the differnet periods of Japanese sword history and doesn't know we are in the Shinsaku period.
That's it. If I've been told wrong, I am open. But "live blade" is a marketing term conjured up by retailers. I'm told this all the time by mall retailers. "Don't touch the blade... it's a live blade!" Ooooh, I'm frightened. Is it alive? Is it living? Or do you mean that if I touch it I might cut myself because if that's so then a sharp stainless blade is a "live blade" -- or do you mean it's "live" because it's non-stainless and if I touch it my fingerprint oils might oxidize the blade steel?
Anyways back to the original point. What is implied by "shinken"? The term is used generically for modern era (Shinsakuto period) non-artsy swords (read: martial arts grade). But it is a term used by Japanese and refers to swords in Japan. Again, I've seen shinken that appear to be fully traditional. They sell for $4,000 -- more or less. These all appear to be made traditionally in terms of materials and methods. When you see the final quality, they're stunning.
Back to the primary point:
So for a Chinese company that was making wallhangers yesterday to doll up their swords a bit more to pass for "shinken" just seems wrong. It implies that these are at the same level as shinken. Bear in mind, "shinken" is not an American retail term. It's a Japanese term for swords made in their nation. If you take that term out of the context of Japan, it becomes subjective and then anyone can bend it to their definition and imply anything they want.
I'll give you an example. The Japanese apparently are infuriated that we have a breed of dog we call Akita. They see the American Akita as a hybrid or something that is entirely different from the pure Aikita that originated in Japan. They will therefore not allow American Akita's to be entered into Japanese dog competitions that focus on Akita dogs. So here if you take the concept of the akita and remove it from its national and cultural context and redefine it outside of Japan then you have something different than the originals.
Now please hear me on this. I'm not someone who agrees with everything the Japanese dictate, but the primary point is that a level of quality is implied using the term "shinken" when that level of quality isn't really quite there by some of the emergying manufacturers in China.
Why have Americans called their swords "Japanese- style swords" instead of "Japanese swords?" Because their katanas are not Japanese swords. They're of the Japanese style. That is not to say there aren't bladesmiths whose work are recognized by the NBTHK in Japan, but American smiths have decidedly called their stuff "Japanese-style" and I think that's a very honorable thing.
And yet the Chinese companies are shamelessly calling their stuff "Japanese swords". Some auction sites have sellers peddling Chinese katanas as real Japanese antiques. And they're not.
Food for thought?
Adrian
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12-14-2005, 04:20 AM
Very interesting topic and good points being made here, please keep it going.
So let's see if I understand this correctly.
1. Shinsakuto can be regarded as nihonto. It is a differentiation between the several time periods in which nihonto were/are made. These are considered to be culturally significant.
2. Shinken are - even if made traditionally and with traditional resources - not considered nihonto. They are however shinsakuto who were not deemed good enough to be considered culturally significant. Am I correct with this assumption? I understand that many of these shinken are exported and used for martial arts by many, and available at many webstores (as a side note, do you happen to know some good & reliable retailers who actually sell these authentic Japanese shinken, and not some Chinese version/ripp-off?). So these Japanese shinken do not require registration and papers by the NBTHK, just because they are not considered culturally significant, even when they are made in Japan with traditional resources and methods? If so, what happens if I want to bring one of these shinken back into Japan (to train with there)?
Am I correct when I assume the above?
Adrian, I will send you an additional e-mail with some questions later on.
Regards,
Tim.
Last edited by Tim Geelen; 12-14-2005 at 05:39 AM..
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12-14-2005, 06:41 AM
Just adding a bit more confusion, or: my experience(s) with these terms.
When Japanese are visiting my home (mostly the younger generation because I´m in charge of Japanese exchange students studying music here in Salzburg), the first thing they ask me when looking at my swords [note: except for shinsakutô, most of them are antique, and all of them "nihontô"]: *freely translated  *
"Are these all shinken?"
In contrary to mogitô (模擬刀, "imitation sword").
So, when not concerned in swords and related stuff, nihontô is not a term, soo common for "normalo" Japanese.
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12-14-2005, 07:07 AM
There are indeed many misconceptions about Japanese swords and their periods and terms. I find it commendable of Adrian to tackle the problem, giving forumites a more clear understanding of, for example, the term Shinken. And although I agree with Adrian in much of what he says, there are a few misunderstandings - mostly language related - that I think should be corrected. Since I don't need to comment on what is correct, I'll concentrate on the debatable topics, and hope my post will be seen in this light - most certainly I'm not trying to be controversial or argumentative.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
The Japanese classify their sword-making history into periods. You've heard of the Koto period, Shinto period, etc. We are currently in the "new" period called Shinsaku.
...
Japanese Sword Periods
Koto Period (pre-1596)
Shinto Period (1597-1780)
Shin-Shinto Period (1781-1876)
Gendai Period (1877-1945)
Shinsaku Period (modern period, i.e. now)
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The sword periods are more precisely
Jôkotô 上古刀 pre-938
early Kotô 初古刀 938 ~ 1319
middle Kotô 中古刀 1319 ~ 1460
late Kotô 末古刀 1460 ~ 1596
Keigen-Shintô 慶元新刀 1596 ~ 1624
Kanei-Shintô 寛永新刀 1624 ~ 1658
Kambun-Shintô 寛文新刀 1658 ~ 1684
Genroku-Shintô元禄新刀1684 ~ 1764
early Shinshintô初新々刀1764 ~ 1818
middle Shinshintô中新々刀1818 ~ 1854
late Shinshintô末新々刀1854 ~ 1868
Gendaitô現代刀1868 ~ today
That's it. Most "hardliners" will tell you we're still in the Shinshintô period which is defined by emulating (and, to a certain degree, copying) Kotô, and they are (kind of) right.
Shinsakutô 新作刀, which means "now/recently made sword", indicates that the sword is made a) by a living smith, and b) after 1952 when the 1945 ban of forging swords ended. It's basically a sub-group of Gendaitô. For example, the NBTHK doesn't paper swords by living smiths; but a sword by a smith who competed in the Shinsakutô contest will paper as Gendaitô if the smith passed away after forging it.
BTW, the above (sub-)classifications might seem as being over-information, but are essential if one wants to compete successfully in Kantei. It isn't necessary to know the exact dates, but not being able to distinguish between, let's say, Kanei and Kambun Shintô is a mark of sword illiteracy.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
However, there are swords that somewhat more or less fail to please the eye that the bladesmith decides he won't submit to the annual contests. These are usually sold as martial arts swords. These specifically are called Shinken. Shinken, hence, are swords made traditionally in Japan by Japanese smiths. These are actually used by practitioners in forms practice as well as cutting. They're not considered art pieces that would be kept in pristine condition.
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Yes and no. There are smiths that only produce art swords, and smiths that only make swords for martial artists. But naturally (well off) JSA practitioners will use art swords for practice, and (not so well off) collectors will go for "Shinken" in forming a collection. To define "art" is a never-ending discussion.
However, smiths above a certain level won't sell their "failures" as martial art swords - they rather destroy them. Believe me, I've seen shards of swords flying through the smithy after the smith hit them Mune first on an anvil for not meeting his standards. Porsche sells high performance cars, and Yugo sells cheap means of transportation. A flawed Porsche will not be sold under the Yugo brand name.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
Apparently there isn't a limit to how many shinken a bladesmith can make because these are not the art swords that would potentially be culturally significant. Culturally significant ones are limited to two per month per bladesmith.
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*Every* smiths is limited to two long or three short swords per month, no matter how he markets them or of what quality they are.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
Are all shinken made out of tamahagane?
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Yes, they better are, or the smith might loose his license. It's an open secret that some Japanese smiths "experiment" with other steels, but for all practical purposes it's a neglectable minority.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
That is not to say there aren't bladesmiths whose work are recognized by the NBTHK in Japan, but American smiths have decidedly called their stuff "Japanese-style" and I think that's a very honorable thing.
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The NBTHK (or, rather, the Japanese Jutôhô [firearms and sword law] doesn't allow for swords being made outside of Japan/not being made by a licensed smith to be recognized as Nihontô. This probably will never change. But I'm glad that most American smiths don't mind this narrow-minded Japanese point of view, and go their own way in creating fine "Katana" outside the established Japanese parameters.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
And yet the Chinese companies are shamelessly calling their stuff "Japanese swords". Some auction sites have sellers peddling Chinese katanas as real Japanese antiques. And they're not.
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Well, buyer beware. The best defense against fraud is educating oneself. That, I hope, is why people come to SFI.
Originally posted by Seth F.
I've always been a fan of "gaijinto".
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The word "Gaijin" has a negative connotation in Japanese. Foreigners are properly referred to as "Gaikokujin", i.e. "people from a foreign country". "Gaijin" (outsiders) is the opposite of "Naijin" (insiders), and isn't only used for foreigners. It's a derogatory term. Non-Japanese who call themselves "Gaijin" do so because they either a) lack an understanding of the Japanese language, or b) do so in the same sense that an African American calls himself and his friends "nigger".
Originally posted by Michael Edelson
What is the traditional meaning of "shinken"? Was that word used in the "olden days"?
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Not really. It's a relatively recent term to more or less distinguish between "real" and "decorative" swords.
Originally posted by J. Pavz
Somewhat off topic, I know, but what is the difference between "ken" and "to"? I believe both mean the same, but obviously are used in different circumstances...
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Most Kanji (Chinese characters) have a Kun-yomi (Japanese reading) and On-yomi (Sino-Japanese reading), and often more than one meaning, especially if combined with other Kanji.
For instance "Katana", meaning sword or knife:
On-yomi - Tô
Kun-yomi - Katana
(There are even special readings, e.g. "Chi", as in Ta*chi*, or "Nata" as in Nagi*nata*.)
The word for a double edged, straight sword is Ken (On-yomi) or Tsurugi (Kun-yomi).
If two Kanji form one word, usually On-yomi is used, as in the combination of Katana and Tsurugi, which is pronounced Tôken and is a collective name for all Japanese edged weapons.
Originally posted by Adrian Ko
Food for thought?
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Absolutely! And here are *my* thoughts:
Actually I don't think we really need to come up with a Japanese word for Japanese-style swords (besides the fact that "Gaikoku-sei Wafû Tôken" isn't exactly easy to remember). We don't call an electric rice cooker "Suihanki" (although I think it sounds kind of cute) just because it was invented in Japan. To take this one step further, we actually don't need any Japanese terms for foreign made "Katana" (which means both, just "sword" or even "knife" in general, and a sword of a certain length and mounting in particular). But it would be silly to not taking advantage of the terminology used for Nihontô as long as we remember that not every activity in a Japanese sword has an equivalent in its North American cousin and vice versa.
Last edited by Guido Schiller; 12-14-2005 at 07:12 AM..
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12-14-2005, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Guido Schiller
The word "Gaijin" has a negative connotation in Japanese. Foreigners are properly referred to as "Gaikokujin", i.e. "people from a foreign country". "Gaijin" (outsiders) is the opposite of "Naijin" (insiders), and isn't only used for foreigners. It's a derogatory term.
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Agreed. But precisely because of this negative connotation, it accurately reflects the reactions I've seen of some Japanese martial artists towards the more ubiquitous Chinese "katana like object" offerings.
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12-14-2005, 09:07 AM
Guido,
Very educational post!
However, I'm still confused as to what you think the word shinken means and how it should be used. I get the impression from your post that you think it should mean any sword that is "real', as in sharp and not a wall hanger. Is this so?
If a Japanese person wanted to ask if someone was holding an iaito or a real sword, what word would he or she most appropriately use? "Is that an iaito, or is that a _______?"
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12-14-2005, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Michael Edelson
Guido,
Very educational post!
However, I'm still confused as to what you think the word shinken means and how it should be used. I get the impression from your post that you think it should mean any sword that is "real', as in sharp and not a wall hanger. Is this so?
If a Japanese person wanted to ask if someone was holding an iaito or a real sword, what word would he or she most appropriately use? "Is that an iaito, or is that a _______?"
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Another can of worms that perhaps Guido can guide us on the translations thereof. "Iaido" (??? iaid?) is the art of cutting / swordsmanship where movements orginate from the drawing of the sheath (or the seiza sitting position). "Do" meaning "Way". So with Iaito (???, iait?) the "to" is the "sword" that is used in the practice of "Iai". Again, the "to" could be translated as being a knife or sword, and is the same Chinese character as "Dao".
Iaito are usually blunt katana-shaped objects made out of a zinc-aluminum (Zamac) alloy with a cosmetic hamon, and their handling is usually lighter than that of your average katana (although some try to compensate for the lightness by using heavier fittings but this still keeps the Center of Gravity closer to the hilt than the CoG of a real katana). The lighter weight of the Iaito minimizes the wear and tear on the arms during forms practice (though some arts use suburity to really develop those forearm muscles).
My understanding is that the Japanese have a law that every sharp sword must be registered as a weapon. Iaito are too soft to be proper cutters even if sharpened, but because they are manufactured as blunts they're seen as martial arts practice tools.
I've heard one smith here in the States make his "iaito" out of folded steel. I don't know how the Japanese would view a traditional sword that is unsharpened.
SwordStore is the place that started using the term "Steel Iaito" when Nosyuiaido found an outfit to train to make Chinese swords. The marketing was "Iaito that cut" but the owner stopped short of calling them shinken. Fred Chen was connected with that outfit Nosyuiaido was using. He either broke away from that outfit, or he was that outfit, according to what some Iaido practitioners tell me. I've handled the original "Steel Iaito" as well as other work of Fred Chen, and they are remarkably similar.
And not to be left out, Hanwei started manufacturing Iaito.
Iaito aren't necessarily cheap. It depends on the mountings, and some people apparently collect Iaito in Japan. Some really nice mounted up swords can go for $1,400-$1,600.
While there are swords today that seem to blur the lines, at the end of the day when you say "Iaito" to a practitioner in Japan, it still means a blunted zinc-aluminum alloy practice sword as opposed to a shinken which is folded steel, traditionally made, and is sharp.
Adrian
Maestro of the Bolognese School (Spaghetti sauce, not fencing!)
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