shirasaya question

Skip Gardner · (#1)

Time for my newby ness to show again, but I have a question. Can a shirasaya katana be used as a project. I mean, if I should get one with the intention of making it a finished katana using the shirasaya would that be ok? I would like to use the saya and tsuka from the shirasaya and just ad the tsuba and other fittings.
The one I found is made by the other Paul Chen. It is a "RONIN: SHIRASAYA KATANA Samurai Sword & Paul Chen kit" It is a ebay item starting bid at 49.95. I have watched others sell for just that.
Blade discripton:
Each piece in the RONIN "SHIRASAYA" Series (RO9103A, RO9103B & RO9103C) has a hand-forged 1050 high-carbon steel blade (nagasa) and is differentially tempered using a traditional claying method. The RONIN "SHIRASAYA" is mounted in wooden hardwood shirasaya scabbard. The blades feature a groove (bo-hi) on both sides and are constructed with a medium length (chu) kissaki. Tsuka structure is Full Tang, meaning that it is battle-ready.
I just want to try my hand at finishing, but am not ready to make my own tsuka or saya.

Jeff Ellis · (#2)

Originally posted by Skip Gardner
Time for my newby ness to show again, but I have a question. Can a shirasaya katana be used as a project. I mean, if I should get one with the intention of making it a finished katana using the shirasaya would that be ok? I would like to use the saya and tsuka from the shirasaya and just ad the tsuba and other fittings.
The one I found is made by the other Paul Chen. It is a "RONIN: SHIRASAYA KATANA Samurai Sword & Paul Chen kit" It is a ebay item starting bid at 49.95. I have watched others sell for just that.
Blade discripton:
Each piece in the RONIN "SHIRASAYA" Series (RO9103A, RO9103B & RO9103C) has a hand-forged 1050 high-carbon steel blade (nagasa) and is differentially tempered using a traditional claying method. The RONIN "SHIRASAYA" is mounted in wooden hardwood shirasaya scabbard. The blades feature a groove (bo-hi) on both sides and are constructed with a medium length (chu) kissaki. Tsuka structure is Full Tang, meaning that it is battle-ready.
I just want to try my hand at finishing, but am not ready to make my own tsuka or saya.

You can, but you need to realize that fushigashira are not standardized and you're going to have to reshape the tsuka to fit them. Shirasaya tend to be a little big, too, so it is possible to reshape one. It might be my next project...

Brett Bandy · (#3)

Hey Skip, great idea actually. I'm pretty new as well, but this sounds like an interesting idea. I've been wondering about this as well, not too sure if it would work exactly right, but it may be a nice "home done" project, and some hands-on customization.

Jeff Ellis · (#4)

Originally posted by Brett Bandy
Hey Skip, great idea actually. I'm pretty new as well, but this sounds like an interesting idea. I've been wondering about this as well, not too sure if it would work exactly right, but it may be a nice "home done" project, and some hands-on customization.

Just looked at the pictures of the cheness shirasaya, you'd have to make a new tsuka for it most likely. there isnt enouh material on the tsuka to reshape it, and it looks undersized in a spot...

Skip Gardner · (#5)

I think the tsuka would be ok on the Ronin I was looking at. Length wise and width. There should be enough material to do what I'm thinking. I would still need to buy the other fittings, but think I just may give this a shot. Have to wait till payday later this week, but will then bid and hopefully win one. I would love to post a couple pics of the Ronin Shirasaya, but from reading in other threads understand that this would not be exceptable. ( Am I correct about this? ) I will however post pics of mine once it arrives. Probably be about two to three weeks. Kind of excited about the whole idea really

Want to laquer the saya in something other than black. Purple maybe ?

Jeff Ellis · (#6)

Originally posted by Skip Gardner
I think the tsuka would be ok on the Ronin I was looking at. Length wise and width. There should be enough material to do what I'm thinking. I would still need to buy the other fittings, but think I just may give this a shot. Have to wait till payday later this week, but will then bid and hopefully win one. I would love to post a couple pics of the Ronin Shirasaya, but from reading in other threads understand that this would not be exceptable. ( Am I correct about this? ) I will however post pics of mine once it arrives. Probably be about two to three weeks. Kind of excited about the whole idea really Want to laquer the saya in something other than black. Purple maybe ?

Skip? There isn't enough material on that tsuka for the fushigashira to be held all around like they should be, at least from the pictures..

It may vary from sword to sword,, but I have a feeling you will need to make a new tsuka.

Skip Gardner · (#7)

Jeff, are you looking at the same one I am? If so, I'm not sure if I understand you. I need to go look up "fushigashira" then I'll probably understand what you mean. Gona go look it up now.

Skip Gardner · (#8)

Hey Jeff, I found an earlier post by you with this pic. I am thinking that at both ends of the tsuka, carving is needed to mount the fushigashira. Not sure, but the tsuka looks both long enough and wide enough to accomplish this. Of course, you hav probably allready done this before and I am green. I'll wait now and see if you are indeed looking at the same shirasaya katana that I am.

Jeff Ellis · (#9)

Originally posted by Skip Gardner
Hey Jeff, I found an earlier post by you with this pic. I am thinking that at both ends of the tsuka, carving is needed to mount the fushigashira. Not sure, but the tsuka looks both long enough and wide enough to accomplish this. Of course, you hav probably allready done this before and I am green. I'll wait now and see if you are indeed looking at the same shirasaya katana that I am.

Skipskip, the fushigashira are the endcaps, the one on the blade saide being the fuchi and the one on the very end being the kashira

when spoken of in a group setting, they are called the fushigashira, as they are a set pair.

I can tell you from personal experience, you won't have enough material to do it. you'll end up with gaps. Gaps as represented by the two black spots in the following attached jpeg.

Skip Gardner · (#10)

O.k. Jeff. I see what you are saying. Well, in for a penny.... I guess I'll just have a try at making a tsuka as well. Pretty sure I have the shirasaya. I'll know by morning. I'll be shopping for fittings in the near future. Including but not limited to wood for the tsuka. I'm sure this little project will take some time, but I'll post pics as it gets underway.

Daniel Bespalko · (#11)

Skip Gardner,
Just a word of caution on any of those "RONIN" swords from swordguardian (ebay).
First of all none of them have anything to do with any Paul Chen.
Paul Chen is only mentioned for a maint kit and that costs $10 extra. I have a "Ronin Tanto". It is just a no name Chinese blade. The hamon is wire brushed and maybe acid enhanced. Under magnification you can the wire brush marks in the hamon across the hamon leading to the edge of the blade, I just looked at it again and you can even see the wire brush marks in the right natural light. The other stupid thing is "The Ronin" is engraved into the blade, on the tanto it starts 2" from the habaki. The capital letters are 1/8" high and runs for 1" long.
The Katana might be worth $50. It's not all it's cracked up to be. But you would be better off with a Masahiro Bamboo for the same price. Or for a few bucks more go for a Cheness. I'm only saying this because I have an example in my hands, if I were you I'd make another choice. Stay with the better known names. I don't want you to be disappointed.

Jeff Ellis · (#12)

Originally posted by Daniel Bespalko
Skip Gardner,
Just a word of caution on any of those "RONIN" swords from swordguardian (ebay).
First of all none of them have anything to do with any Paul Chen.
Paul Chen is only mentioned for a maint kit and that costs $10 extra. I have a "Ronin Tanto". It is just a no name Chinese blade. The hamon is wire brushed and maybe acid enhanced. Under magnification you can the wire brush marks in the hamon across the hamon leading to the edge of the blade, I just looked at it again and you can even see the wire brush marks in the right natural light. The other stupid thing is "The Ronin" is engraved into the blade, on the tanto it starts 2" from the habaki. The capital letters are 1/8" high and runs for 1" long.
The Katana might be worth $50. It's not all it's cracked up to be. But you would be better off with a Masahiro Bamboo for the same price. Or for a few bucks more go for a Cheness. I'm only saying this because I have an example in my hands, if I were you I'd make another choice. Stay with the better known names. I don't want you to be disappointed.

AHA! I had assumed he meant cheness!

Hmm.. Go for the Cheness man, really.

Daniel Bespalko · (#13)

Here's a pic from the auction of the katana in question.

Is that messed up or what?

B. Sian · (#14)

Ronin is a company here in canada that run out of the night market in Richmond BC. There swords claim to be "as good of a cutter as hanwei and cold steel" but they over price there items extremely. There $500 model they sell is more of a $100-$150 blade by fair market value. I have seen them first hand and they are not all that worth the price that they offer. They cater to a crowd that has no idea of what to look for in a blade. They think they are getting a traditional blade and "with a purchase of blade at regular price you can get the next one an half off." So "wow" i must be getting a deal.....lol, in the long run they paid $750 for 2 swords worth $300. They also informed me they are mid level carbon, whatever that is, and will not say/ or do not know what grade of steel there swords are.

Stay with a cheness 9260 shirasaya or get in contact with Oni forge i think they are offering blades in a shirasaya as well.

Skip Gardner · (#15)

Well guys, by the time you had posted, I had allready bid. I woke this morning to find that I did win the Ronin for $60.00. Keep in mind please, this is being purchased as a project. I dont expect anything purchased on ebay at this kind of price to be a quality piece.
Like I said, I'll post pics of the item when it arrives and as project gets under way. This pic is what made me think the tsuka would be ok. But with your advice, now plan on making my own.

John Kingry · (#16)

Is this seller including the length of the tang in the 38"? If not this blade only has a 8" tsuka.

Skip Gardner · (#17)

38 inches would be an awfully long blade. I am thinking this includes tang. With that in mind and looking at the pics. I would guess the tsuka to be at least 10 to 12 inches. Guess I'll know for sure when it arrives.

Tommy Gilliam · (#18)

Hey

Jeff is right up there.

There would definately be gaps and usually the wood isn't that good on production lower end shira saya I've seen. The profile of the shots of the shirasaya show to me the profile close to a normal tsuka in thickness so having the shape it wouldn't have enough material there. I'd go Cheness too as at least Paul will tell you what his is for sure made from and if it's tempered and the like.

tom_urso · (#19)

Please keep in mind that a "shirasaya" is not meant to be a functional sword as is. A shirasaya is only meant to store the blade of a sword for an extended period of time. The wood is not lacquered so the metal can breathe and the handle is often shorter than normal and with only 1 pin. In other words, although the bargain sword companies may say "battle ready", that is not true nor its intended purpose.

As your the handle making project, this should be a great experience. Please be very careful not to cut yourself. Cheap blade or not, sharp is sharp. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and you can even Google "tsuka repair" and find something useful.

Good luck.

Thank you

Skip Gardner · (#20)

Thank you all. I appriciate the responses very much. I'll be posting pics as soon as it arrives, as well as when the project is underway. G.T. gave me some good advice as to where to find suitable materials for the tsuka ( wood ) in our local area here.
On a whim, I decided to pick up the tanto as well which should be arriving about the same time as the katana and PC cleaning kit. I also have emailed the seller and asked if I could possibly obtain the wakizashi. I have wanted a matching set since I first thought of collecting swords, but never cared for the quality of the cheap wall hanging variety. If I'm lucky enough to obtain the wakizashi, I'll have a whole winters worth of project ahead of me. Thanks again everyone,
Skip

Daniel Bespalko · (#21)

Originally posted by Skip Gardner
Thank you all. I appriciate the responses very much. I'll be posting pics as soon as it arrives, as well as when the project is underway. G.T. gave me some good advice as to where to find suitable materials for the tsuka ( wood ) in our local area here.
On a whim, I decided to pick up the tanto as well which should be arriving about the same time as the katana and PC cleaning kit. I also have emailed the seller and asked if I could possibly obtain the wakizashi. I have wanted a matching set since I first thought of collecting swords, but never cared for the quality of the cheap wall hanging variety. If I'm lucky enough to obtain the wakizashi, I'll have a whole winters worth of project ahead of me. Thanks again everyone,
Skip

Skip,
Here is an excellent article on a home made tsuka.
http://japantrip.tripod.com/nihonto/tsuka/tsuka01.html

Skip Gardner · (#22)

Daniel,
Thank you very much. See, this is exactly why belonging to SFI is so cool. Helpfull persons eager to give pointers, or at least point someone in the correct direction. Thanks again everyone !!! You can bet I marked this link in my favorites. I'll be printing this out as well

Skip

Skip Gardner · (#23)

Oh, and a pic of the Ronin Shirasay Tanto,

Daniel Bespalko · (#24)

Originally posted by Skip Gardner
Oh, and a pic of the Ronin Shirasay Tanto,

I have that same Ronin tanto in shirasaya that I refinished in a black "stone coat" finish. It's a nice blade but I do not like the engraving "The Ronin". The hamon is a combo of wire brush and acid I think. At least that is what mine looks like.

Skip Gardner · (#25)

O.K. The Ronin Tanto arrived today (and my cleaning kit thank goodness) I must say that I like it very much. Having "Ronin" on the blade is not a bother to me. I'm impressed with how well it is made. My hamon is the same I am pretty sure. I was hoping for true hamon, but wasnt thinking it would really be one.
I am impressed with the quality of the shirasaya overall. The saya fits like a glove. Actually its very tight on the habaki leaving no rattle at all. I hope the katana's saya fits as well. It should be here today or monday. I'll post pictures of both once the katana has arrived.
Also expecting fittings I bought here from a SFI member. They should be here soon as well. Cant wait to get underway with my project