Rate this fantasy armor..please

[E. Andersson]

Hello folks, first time post in the armour forum!

Armour is one of my prime interest, though the daunting prospect of hunting down a perfectly fitting full plate armor, and the fact that I have some esthetic(sp?) problem with full plate, unknown exactly what, I have begun planning a piece of armour of my own!
Fantasy is maybe the wrong word, there is no spikes, horns, wings, or any stuff like that, it´s just a suit of armour of my own design!

Here is an image to help you envision the armor..


I have a MUCH better drawing of it on a piece of paper, though the scanner is not working and my limited skills with MS paint is.. yes well, see for yourselves

Lets start from the top, shall we?

1-Ordinary knights helmet.

2-Uhm.. whats the term.. neck protecters?
Two pieces of metal protuding from the breastplate below, protection the neck from slashes and cuts, though is vulnerable against thrusts.
Not supposed to be anywhere NEAR the size in the picture, just enough to cover the gap between the shoulders and the helmet.

3- The breastplate.. quite standard, I´d say, though with plate emerging from the bottom of the plate to protect the midsection, with yet another plate to protect the groin. Not so sure about the groin-protector, but thats a minor concern right now...

4- Going off to the sides, we see a pair of scale-armor-upper arm-protectors, though they should be merged with the breastplate at the shoulders, the piece of limb you see between the plate and the arm-guard should be covered up. Planned to end just above the elbow. Half-circle shaped so protects both front and back of arm.

5- Though not shown, a pair of gothic gauntlets will be placed on the hands (yes, the blue balls at the end of the blue sticks)

6- Beneath the breastplate we see a familiar construct, like the ones on the shoulders>elbows, though these will be bigger and cover the thighs down to the knee.
Though once again, I´ve failed to draw them the way I want to:
They should not stray so far off to the side, they will cover more of the legs.
Just like the ones on the arm, these will be half-circular, leaving only the inner thigh open to strikes.

7- Not shown, below I plan to wear a pair of greaves, to protect the lower legs.

Well, that´s it I suppose...

If I may, I wish to list the pro´s and con´s of this armor, versus a full plate suit (IMO ofcourse)

Pro

-Lighter, less metal to wear
-A tad more ventilation
-Less expensive
-Stylized and personalized (to me, that is)
...yes

Con

-Less protective, ofcourse, since more skin is showed
- What more?

Forgive me if this is a stupid idea, I am very new in this whole medieval bussiness..
Though I must ask, would this suit be allowed to sparr with?

Thanks for your time!

E. Andersson

[Michael Eversberg II]

1-Ordinary knights helmet.[*]Be more specific, there are so many...[*]

2-Uhm.. whats the term.. neck protecters?
Two pieces of metal protuding from the breastplate below, protection the neck from slashes and cuts, though is vulnerable against thrusts.
Not supposed to be anywhere NEAR the size in the picture, just enough to cover the gap between the shoulders and the helmet.[*]Drop this and just wear a coif; I forsee this getting in the way more than nececary. If this idea appeals to you, then have a curving, raised plate riveted to your paudrons. It will still alow you to turn your head, etc. Place this on the pauldron covering the shoulder oposite your dominate arm (if you are right handed, put this on the left side.)[*]

3- The breastplate.. quite standard, I´d say, though with plate emerging from the bottom of the plate to protect the midsection, with yet another plate to protect the groin. Not so sure about the groin-protector, but thats a minor concern right now...[*]There is no "standard" brestplate. Please be more specific? Or do you need help here?[*]

4- Going off to the sides, we see a pair of scale-armor-upper arm-protectors, though they should be merged with the breastplate at the shoulders, the piece of limb you see between the plate and the arm-guard should be covered up. Planned to end just above the elbow. Half-circle shaped so protects both front and back of arm.[*]Buckle them to the piece of curiass that covers your trapize muscle. Buckle again around your arm, near the elbow.[*]

5- Though not shown, a pair of gothic gauntlets will be placed on the hands (yes, the blue balls at the end of the blue sticks)[*]I like that style alot. Leather or metal?[*]

6- Beneath the breastplate we see a familiar construct, like the ones on the shoulders>elbows, though these will be bigger and cover the thighs down to the knee.
Though once again, I´ve failed to draw them the way I want to:
They should not stray so far off to the side, they will cover more of the legs.
Just like the ones on the arm, these will be half-circular, leaving only the inner thigh open to strikes.[*]These are called tassets (though at that size, it may have another name). Where are they connecting? To your armingwear, a belt, or to the curiass?[*]

7- Not shown, below I plan to wear a pair of greaves, to protect the lower legs.[*]Made of...[*]

Well, that´s it I suppose...

If I may, I wish to list the pro´s and con´s of this armor, versus a full plate suit (IMO ofcourse)

Pro

-Lighter, less metal to wear[*]Really? Light does not ALWAYS mean mobile.[*]
-A tad more ventilation[*]Have you worn plate armour before?[*]
-Less expensive[*]Really?[*]
-Stylized and personalized (to me, that is)Always fun
...yes[*]Pancaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake.[*]

Con

-Less protective, ofcourse, since more skin is showed[*]This is bad. Research "Gussets" to help counteract this problem.[*]
- What more?

Forgive me if this is a stupid idea, I am very new in this whole medieval bussiness..
Though I must ask, would this suit be allowed to sparr with?[*]I spar wearing regular clothing. It really depends what you want to make this out of. I'm guessing ~16ga steel for the most part?[*]


M.

[E. Andersson]

Thank you Michael.. now to answer your pointings:

Ehm.. ordinary knights helmet.. well, like the one on the picture, I´d guess!
It´s the only piece I´ve got so far..

Thanks for the ideas on the ``neck protectors``.. when you say it now, it seems quite obvious that only one piece is needed..

By standard breasplate, I mean gothic breastplate, sorry about that!

Appreciate the advice on the scale-armor-bitz.

The gothich gauntlets will be made in steel.

I plan to wear the giant tassets attached to either a belt under the cuirass, or somehow connected with the inside of the cuirass...

Oh, and the greaves will be made of steel (steel shines nicely)

Sorry about the list of pro´s and con´s, as I really have either little or no experience at all regarding the matter, except that I know it will be less expensive (having consulted local armorers) and ofcourse, more perzonalised..

Well, I´m hoping to have the armour quite resistant, though Im not sure about the gauges the pieces should be in.. all I know is that my helmet is 2mm thick at the thinnest point (all around).
14 gauge, right?

Thanks for your opinions!

E. Andersson

[H. Gaballa]

Without wishing to sound like a pompous know-it-all, I would like to point out that heavily armoured cavalry (although knights could and did also fight on foot), i.e. "knights" or "men-at-arms" were part of Western European armies from the early 11th to the late 16th century. During that time they wore a wide variety of helmets, starting with "Norman-style" conical helms, through to great-helms, then bascinets, sallets, armets and finally close helmets and burgonets.


A quick Google image search for each of these terms may produce a picture and probably a term for the type of helmet you mean.

For example, tapping sallet into Google's image search produced the following results:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/afa..._29.158.11.htm
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?antique_sallet_a.jpg
http://www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk/Ne...d%20sallet.JPG
http://www.jelldragon.com/images/jk_sallet_1.jpg

Here is the full search:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?sv...et&btnG=Search

Here's another example, I typed "armet" into google:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=...=&start=0&sa=N


Google is a wonderful tool...

[E. Andersson]

Hmm, well, it is neither a sallet nor an armet..luckily though, I found a picture on the net that RESEMBLES the one I have:



That one is similar to my own in shape, though my helmet only has 1 side with breathing holes and no brass decorations.. plain and simple!

Oh, and I dont care if you do come across as a pompous know-it-all, since you most certainly know more about the matter than I do!

Thank you.

E. Andersson

Edit: Blergh, the picture didnt work.. well, gotta use good old imageshack once more!

[Roel Oosterop]

Looks like the 'sugarloaf' version of the great helm (or heaume). This will date the equipment to the late 1200's/early 1300's. That's an era where maille and coats-of-plate were common.
By the time plate armour was first used (ca. 1350, maybe a few years earlier), the bascinet was the common helmet.
If you like to have the groin protection, the armour (historically) has to be dated at least a century later. Then the salet is the predominant type of helmet for a 'tinnie'.

Regards, Roel

[H. Gaballa]

Originally posted by E. Andersson
Hmm, well, it is neither a sallet nor an armet..luckily though, I found a picture on the net that RESEMBLES the one I have:

That one is similar to my own in shape, though my helmet only has 1 side with breathing holes and no brass decorations.. plain and simple!

Oh, and I dont care if you do come across as a pompous know-it-all, since you most certainly know more about the matter than I do!

Thank you.

E. Andersson

Edit: Blergh, the picture didnt work.. well, gotta use good old imageshack once more!

What you're describing sounds like the mid-14th century version of the "great helm". By the this time though great helms were used mainly for tourneys and jousting rather than for battle.


(Click on the thumbnail please)

A good website for information about arms and armour is the MyArmoury.com website which has loads of pictures and articles etc about armour.

[Justin Kirck]

Those neck protector things are called "haute guards" and historically placed on the pauldrons, which you dont actually have listed. so this might not be feasable.

The breastplate, the "standard gothic" i assume you mean something like that which is sold by Museum Replicas?

The skirt and shoulders of scales... Well i know what your talking about, they do look cool. I currently am working on a warhammer fantasy High Elf kit, and they use alot of scales. As for attatching them, think about making them integral to the under armour arming garment. (which is an absolute must, no matter what dat you are speaking of.) for ease of work, try buying the scales from Theringlord.com, but that is just a suggestion. Tailor them like you would a sleeve, or a split skirt, and then sew them (their backing lends itself to being either sewn with very strong (linen) thread, or pointing them with ties that run through the garment) to the fronting of your undergarment (if you have ever seen the lord of the rings extended DVDs when they are talking about how they armed and armored the elves, remember how they showed pictures of the elves' undertunic? it was padded on the chest and the shiny bits were outside the breastplate area? think of that) this will also help heep the stuff from slipping around while you move.

I hope you dont actually plan on using this to fight in, simply because there is soo much uncovered (knees and elbows especially) and i would like to reinforce the idea that this is completely fantastical... other than that, good luck.

[E. Andersson]

Thank you Justin, for the information given.

I just want to make two things clear:

- This is by no means the final look of the armor, as it will probably be atleast 1,5 years until I can even hope to get it done.. I´m always open for suggestions.
Recently though, the image of myself inside a full plate armor seems very attractive.. just need a way to personalize it!
Justin: I do plan to ``fight`` in it, or sparr, or whatever. And if it comes to show that I expose too much flesh, then I will remedy it with even more pieces of steel to cover it up!

- I am not bound by historical boundaries. I´m looking for putting together a suit of armor, and making it look Good. Mixing and Matching is one of my specialties.. note: not trying to sound indignating towards historical pieces, just expressing my goal and means of achievement.

Thank you.

E. Andersson

[E. Andersson]

This is the heavy armour approach on the matter.

Same helmet, coif (I think that is what a coif looks like?) same scale-armor, elbow-armor, same Gothic breastplate, much more leg armor and removal of that groin-plate appendix.
I figured that the ``under plate`` could be increased to the lenght where it prevents a stab to the groin.

Upper thigh armor, knee plate, steel greaves, steel ``shoes`` (sabaton?). Everything covered in plate exept for the upper arms, which should be covered by the scale-armor, strapped tightly to the limb to prevent flappiness.

Note: The gaunlets do not look even remotely near those ones, just drew them up to create a sense of completeness.
And yes, the legs are way to thin. Bare with me, please.


[IMG][/IMG]

Would look nice and shiny..

Thank you.

E. Andersson


Justin: Greetings, fellow Warhammer enthusiast

[Justin Kirck]

The "under-plate" is called a fauld. This entire suit seems very heavy with some pointless plates. having a fauld AND cuisses (upper leg/thigh armor) AND a skirt of scales is alot of extra weight. Personally i would recommend losing the cuisses, and the fauld, and having a skirt of scales that starts directly under the breastplate and doesnt split (so a somewhat full skirt) that falls to your knees, and have greaves and an articulated poleyn (knee) and a sabaton, if you desire. As for the arms, i strongly suggest you dont just "belt on " the scales. i really do suggest a full sleeve wrapped around the arming garment. that way they move freely, but not too freely, and dont limit your range of motion. As for the coif, it is basically a Maille (not chainmail.. never chainmail... thats like saying 'chain chain') hood. if you want, you could consider a gorget, which goes on with a breastplat to protect neck and throat (breastplates often stop at the collar bones)

Final question, are you making this or are you going to put it together bit by bit?

[E. Andersson]

Thank you for the lesson in terminology!

I wish that I could do the armor myself, but unfortunately no, it will be piece-by-piece.. worth noting once again:

-Nothing that I can evoke here, even with your help, will be the definite version, I just have to go and get the parts I can, though I can try to imitate the one I will have in mind!

Hmm, I will try and use my limited MS paint skills to conjure up yet another vision.. this time using your full-skirt-method.

Edit: yay!

[IMG][/IMG] Enlarge to read the parts.

Justin, an arming garment is synonimous to a gambeson, right?

Oh, and though it might look like the skirt is splitting down the middle, it really isnt.. s´just I think the suit needs more color and decor. (the trims are not supposed to be white, just havent decided on what color yet!)

Looking better everytime, eh?


Thank you once again.

E. Andersson

[H. Gaballa]

Have a look at these 2 pictures from "Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight", by David Edge and John Miles Paddock. You may find them helpful.





Also I'm sorry to seem pedantic but but an arming garment is not the same as a gambeson. A gambeson could be worn as armour in its own right, whereas an arming garment was always worn under armour. As a result an arming garment was thinner, had mail gussets over vulnerable areas and had pieces of thick ribbon or twine on it to allow pieces of plate armour to be attached.

This plate from Gerry Embleton's "Medieval Military Costume" (Europa Militaria Special No. 8) should illustrate what I mean:





Edit

BTW the last picture you posted looks vaguely like a "Transitional" style armour from the 14th century. "Transitional" armours had coats-of-plates, plate. mail, splints and scales in various combinations. I've not seen one quite like yours though.

[E. Andersson]

Thank you all for your replies.. I think that with your help, I might have reached the final version of my imaginary armour...
Let me explain it one more time, (no picture though)

Top to bottom:

Helmet: 'sugarloaf' version of the great helm (2 mm thick all around, more at the top, hard to measure though )

Gorget: Yes.. in steel.

Breast+backplate: undecided on looks.. though it will not have any lames or faulds.

Arms: Full sleeve of scale-armor, reaching from the point where the breastplate ends down to just below the elbow.
Couter on the elbows for extra protection.
Short vambraces in steel, since the Gothic Gauntlets I plan on wearing covers a portion of the forearm.

Legs: A long scale-armor skirt, reaching from where the breastplate ends down to a bit below the knees.
I want the lower portion of the skirt to rise a bit when I raise my knee, as to not produce a black, gaping hole into my groin-parts.. urgh.
A pair of Poleyn on the knees, for extra protection, and articulated stuff is cool.
Steel greaves on the lower legs, and ending with a pair of pointy Sabatons (steel, nice, shiny steel!) on the feet.


Hooray for me! And you!



Anyway, I have a few questions:

Regarding the thickness of the parts, my helmet is probably mild steel, though rather thick.. the gauntlets will also be mild steel.
The breastplate will hopefully be made with tempered springsteel, to reduce the weight.
Actually, it seems that everything on the harness will be mild except for the breastplate!
Would this be acceptable and functional?? Or will it bend if I slip on something and crashes into the floor below?
The gauges will depend on the pieces ofcourse.. the thickest will be the helmet and the breastplate(though in springsteel).. the other parts will comprise of a mixture of 16 gauge and 18 gauge steel... or so it is planned.

Yeah, and scale-armor.. am I correct in stating that it usually consists of overlapping steel-scales (what gauge?) on a semi-thick leather surface?
What is scale-armors strenghts and weaknesses?
I would say that scale is strong against mass-weapons, as it will not be formed exactly after my body, more like hanging around it.. so only a little force should be transferred to my precious flesh...right?

Arming garment will be low on the priority-list for now though..but atleast now I know what to look for!
(Thank you H. Gaballa)

Thank you for your time, everybody!

E. Andersson

[Justin Kirck]

www.theringlord.com
check under the "scales heading"
and coif, made out of steel.. you know that the coif is made of maille, yes?

as for thickness, everything should hold up. Hovever, 16 guage is rather thick for a tempered breastplate. for that you are looking at around 18, and other than the breastplate, cuisse (thighs) helmet, and poleyns and couters, nothing needs to be thicker (from mild steel) than 18 guage, especially considering i doubt you will be actually fighting to the death. (the reason those above mentioned need to be thicker is due to either required protection, or way in which they are made... find an armorer who can raise pieces instead of dish them, and everything can be made of around 18 guage.

[E. Andersson]

Aargh, I meant a gorget, not a coif!

Really, a gorget!
...stupid me...

Hehe, well, thank you for your advice.

E. Andersson

Edit: Edited above post!