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Cliff Stamp (Offline)
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regarding cutting ability and edge retention as effected by profile - 09-04-2006, 05:13 PM

Recently there has been some discussion of the effect of edge angle on edge retention and cutting lifetime :

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...5&pagenumber=2

I proposed the use of the following model to describe the behavior of the edge in regards to extent of blunting through a media :

y(x)=a*x^b+c

Further to this would be how to model the cutting ability :

c(x)=D/(E+F*y(x,c=0))

This comes from just assuming that cutting ability is inversely proportional to the total of the forces on the edge which are a sum of any constant force such as the wedging and then the force due to blunting. Of course all the constants can be absorbed to produce :

c(x)=c_0/(1+y(x,c=0))

where c_0 is the initial sharpness. Now as an application, I have much data gathered on hemp and rope for which this works but to eliminate any issues with "human influences" I'll start off with some Buck knives CATRA data as it is machine gathered and from an independent source which has already been published in 2001.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=127499

From the following graph :



The 420HC blade with the "Edge 2000" profile radically outperforms the BG-42 blade with the more obtuse edge profile until the blades have seriously degraded. The "Edge 2000" process reduces the angle to 14.5 degrees per side and flattens the sharpening by using a hard cardboard wheel to replace a cloth wheel, so the previous more obtuse bevels were also heavier convex at the edge. Now of course when the profiles are made similar the BG-42 blade pulls ahead :



Now as to the model :



From the numerical quanties produced you can determine both the type of blunting, which comes from the power coefficient, and the rate of blunting, which comes from the multiplicative constant. Now I don't want to go into too much numerical detail because I actually digitized that data from the graph but even a light overview shows a fairly strong behavior.

With application of the above two models to enough data it would be possible to both correlate the parameters to the physical properties such as edge angle and thickness and then as well look at the dependance on hardness, wear resistance, carbide size and so on. This would then allow prediction of stability and edge retention based on such characteristics.

Note as well that it also proposes another viewpoint in consideration of performance. For example while BG-42 is outperformed by 420HC when the angles are 20 vs 14.5, when they are equal it reverses. This implies that at some angle between 14.5 and 20 the BG-42 blade would have equal long term edge holding at a more obtuse angle. This increased angle would also give it better geometrical durability so it implies that properties which give better edge retention such as hardness and wear resistance could actually enhance durability by allowing thicker edge profiles at a given cutting lifetime.

As one final note, the way that CATRA presents the results isn't overly informative because the general question that people want to know is something like "How much more material can I cut with BG-42 over 420HC.". In order to answer this from the CATRA graphs you have to use horizontal intersection asymptotes. In this case this gives a nonlinear function of the amount of media cut. However if you take the two curves produced from the model, calculate the percentage cutting ability and its inverse function, and calculate the the intersection of the origional functions :

ybg(x)= 10.9/(1.+0.44*x**0.97#BG-42; 
y420(x)=10.4/(1.+0.37*x**1.34#420HC;

y21(x)=((10.4/ybg(x)-1)/0.37)**(1/1.34#intersect;

yrbg(x)=1/(1.+0.44*x**0.97#relative BG42;
yribg(x)=((1/x-1)/0.44)**(1/0.97#its inverse;

eval(x)=(yribg(x/100)/y21(yribg(x/100))-1)*100 #desired result; 
you can produce the following graph :



The x-axis is the reduction in cutting ability of the knives and the y-axis shows how much more material the BG-42 blade can cut over the 420HC blade. When the blades are cutting about half of optimal, point (1), the BG-42 blade will have cut about 20% more material - not overly impressive. However, when the blades are used down to about 25% of optimal, point (2), the BG-42 blade will have cut over 60% more material.

So if you like to keep your blades very sharp and they are always cutting very close to optimal, that CATRA data doesn't show much of an advantage to BG-42. Since BG-42 it also more expensive and 420HC is tougher, more ductile, easier to grind and more corrosion resistant - it seems obvious that 420HC is the clear winner. However if you are willing to use your blades to very blunt states then BG-42 will have a large advantage.

Note clearly here that it would not be advisble here to generalize on every 420HC and BG-42 blade from that one comparison but to instead use it to comment on Buck Knives only. However it does raise some general points of interest about edge retention in general as influenced by steel properties and geometry. I also wanted to show how numerically you can analyze such edge retention data to determine material properties as well as how to present edge retention data in a manner which is visually obvious.

As noted, of personal interest would be to correlate the numerical quantities to the geometrical/material properties. If you increase hardness for example does it have a stronger effect on the multiplicative constant or the power constant, similar for wear resistance and carbide size. To be clear - there is NO NEED to have identical blades or steels to determine these relationships. All influences can be modeled at the same time to determine their influence as well as the correlation between them.

It of course much easier to do the math if the blades are only different in one aspect, but the statistics exists to handle many different variations at once. I have worked with models with are far more complex than the above where you have to model not only the dependance of a function on physical parameters but how those parameters are influenced by the temperature and pressure of the enviroment. So if all you have is a random assortment of knives in all different shapes and sizes and steels then go right ahead and generate some data. You can then determine all the coefficients and then model them by appropriate functions.

-Cliff
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Lee Cordochorea (Offline)
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09-04-2006, 08:50 PM

Cliff, I apologise for being so dense, but what do the variables in those equations represent? What is x or b or F?


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09-04-2006, 09:33 PM

Sorry I skipped a lot of detail. Start off with the cutting ability of a knife under a given load, meaning the depth that you achieve on a cut, is inversely proportional to the force on the knife by the material during the cut. So you would have :

CA=C/F_t

The value of C represents the work by the material on the knife, which has to be the same as the work done by the knife on the material (=F_t*CA). Now the cutting ability decreases as we make repeated cuts because the edge is getting blunter which increaes the force. So now we have :

CA(x)=C/F_t(x)

Where x is the amount of cuts made and :

F_t(x)=F_w+F_e(x)

Here F_w is the force it takes the blade to push the material out of the way. It is constant because the gross shape of the blade never changes. The force on the edge, F_e(x), increases because as the edge gets blunter it is thicker and it takes more force on the edge to achieve the necessary rupture pressure to cause the material at the edge to burst apart. So now we have :

CA(x)=C/(F_w+F_e(x))

Now previously I said you can model blunting, y(x), after cutting a given amount of material, x, by :

y(x)=a*x^b+c

Here b is a constant, the main influence is on long range blunting because when x gets large the power has a massive influence. I think it is highly dependent on wear resistance and carbide instability. However a just multiplies and thus it tends to dominate early and I think it is dependent on hardness and carbide stability. The initial measurement of blunting, c, is ideally zero for a perfect edge which isn't possible due to the finite size of carbides/grains and imperfection of our ability to actually sharpen knives anyway. So for example :

Knife A : 1.2*x**0.5+10

Knife B : 1.0*x**0.75+10

Early on Knife A shows more blunting, but eventually Knife B catches up and shows more blunting late stage. This is exactly the behavior Landes describes for his type I (high edge stability) vs type III (low edge stability) steels. So now our model looks like this :

CA(x)=C/(F_w+a*x^b+c)

This is clumsy because there are multiple constants which can be combined so we clean it up :

CA(x)=C_0/(1+Ax^b)

Here C_0 is now the initial cutting ability, how much the knife would cut with no blunting. It is dependent on the geometry of the knife and the stiffness of the material and how hard it is to rupture. A is basically a/(F_w+c) so will depend on the value of a and the wedging force. Once these physical constants of A and b are determined they can be correlated to the physical properties of the the materials. I really need more data to formulate the exact models but as a rough starting point I would expect the dependence of b :

b(p,h)=C/(p*h*wr)

Where C is just a proportionality constant, p is the probability that a carbide will tear out on a given cut, h is the size of the hole it makes, and wr is the wear resistance of the surrounding steel. So if you used a secondary hardening to give lots of very fine precipitates with a steel with some chunkly primary carbides the b value would be very low because there would be a high probability of the large primary carbides tearing out and the secondary precipitates would increase the wear resistance of the remaining matrix.

You would expect the probability of carbide tear out to be related to the hardness of the martensite and nature of the carbides (size/amount), grain size, and other properties. I have been discussing these models with Krauss recently and hopefully he can provide some insight into the relevant material properties. Note this is for slicing, for push cutting I would expect the relationship to be :

b(p,h)=C*p*h/wr

In push cuts if you lose chunks of carbide you don't get an enhanced sawing effect as you do on slicing so increased probability of tear outs and larger holes make the knife blunt faster. The performance drops rapidly as all those holes just bind up in the material, you end up trying to use a saw like an axe. Thus for push cuts you want a very fine and very hard steel with extremely well distributed carbides with no networking/segregation and low retained austenite. Steels like F2, AEB-L, M2, etc. .

-Cliff

Last edited by Cliff Stamp; 09-05-2006 at 09:55 AM..
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09-05-2006, 11:13 AM

Lee, I think some confusion is due to representing standard mathematical notation in ASCII graphics, so what I'd say as "F sub e" looks like F_e in Cliff's shorthand.

I have a question, too, Cliff. Is one of the graphs you show a plot of your model with a certain parameter set, or are all the graphs the measured CATRA data?

I wondered if one of the graphs shows the fit of your proposed model to the CATRA data, or if I just missed that...


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Cliff Stamp (Offline)
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09-05-2006, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by jim frank
Lee, I think some confusion is due to representing standard mathematical notation in ASCII graphics, so what I'd say as "F sub e" looks like F_e in Cliff's shorthand.
Yes, you can code this directly in HTML. Equations get fairly ugly in ASCII.

Is one of the graphs you show a plot of your model with a certain parameter set, or are all the graphs the measured CATRA data?
It is all CATRA data. The first two plots were published by BUCK in 2001. The second two graphs come from data I measured off of those plots. I have lots of personal data which I will use eventually but I wanted to start off with an independent data set to give the people who like to ignore reality a harder task. I don't doubt there are those that will still ignore the above conclusions even while they constantly promote steels using CATRA data.

-Cliff
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